Igniton drivers vs ecu's - D-series.org

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Old 04-23-2009, 04:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Igniton drivers vs ecu's

After i dyno'd my car, and discovered that i needed to upgrade my ignition. So i had thoughts of doing the individual coil packs, like the system from AEM. Well, i was informed from my tuner that it would work. I'm running Hondata s300. This is part of our conversation as i was referring the ignition problem as the "odds against me", as i'm trying to find a solution.



"The odds are not against you, it's just NOT possible with any product you have described. A factory ECU has a SINGLE ignition output - this output goes to an igniter (which lives inside the stock factory Honda distributor), the igniter changes a small signal generated bt the ECU into a strong signal to fire the coil (which also lives inside the factory distributor). This event happens just before each piston comes up to TDC - the coil fires and the rotor directs the spark to each tower of the distributor cap which then "distributes" the spark to the correct cylinder that is on its compression stroke. If you want a coil on top of each cylinder, you must have a properly timed signal to spark it - that means an ECU with 4 ignition outputs (or at least 2 in a wasted spark config, but that's another story too). Having a Hondata system inside the factory ECU does NOT change the fact that the ECU only has a single coil output - period. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from - 1 does not equal 2 or 4.

The distributor in a Honda performs many tasks in its stock form - cam/crank position info to the ECU, home for the igniter and coil, and spark distribution after the spark has been generated. The first step we take to modify them for better performance is to use a stronger coil mounted outside the distributor - and energize it with a CDI (capacitive discharge ignition) system. Most people use MSD because it works well enough, it's cheap, and they don't know any better. The igniter that used to drive the coil directly now just triggers the MSD box to create a really high output that the new, stronger coil further amplifies and sends back into the distributor (through a fancy cap with an external tower input) to get sent to the correct cylinder. The M&W is a CDI (Australians just say CD) system also, but includes an igniter so it can be triggered directly from an ECU - there are other cool features, you can read them here : http://www.mwignitions.com/pdf/Pro10_s3.pdf. Peter's factory distributor was used for only two things - send engine position info to the ECU and then send the spark from the input tower to the correct cylinder. The AEM EPM is used to send engine position information to an ECU (any ECU). An ECU that has multiple ignition outputs can use them to fire multiple coils. An engine "position" module does not make the distributor go away by itself - in fact, you don't need this thing at all with an aftermarket ECU to have direct fire ign, it's just a very nice, tidy, easy, clean way to provide ENGINE POSITION to an ECU.

For very high RPM engines, I would like to use a crank sensor pickup rather than one at the end of a camshaft for higher accuracy, but that's way beyond the scope of this discussion. None of my pro racing applications use anything other than a well planned crank sensor with cam sensors for engine position accuracy.

Since I've spent a while writing this up, please feel free to post it where people are trying to figure out ignition systems."

"Ed Senf
EMS, Inc. "

Hopefully this will help others as they modify their vehicles to the limits!
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Old 04-24-2009, 05:10 AM   #2 (permalink)
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what engine you have? turbo?
you know you're gonna get a lot of people here telling you their stock ignition is fine up to 400hp and more and that MSD's are terrible?
unless you're setup is balls out, i'd say spark is the least of your probs. honda spark is good
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Old 04-24-2009, 07:35 AM   #3 (permalink)
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It depends on what youa re trying to do. Honestly, the districutor is the weakest link in a Honda engine, especially without more accurate ways for the ECU to corelate the cam position relative to the crank to compensate for timing belt stretch. Anyone a person can do to eliminate that error or "slop" in the system is a good thing, but that requires an aftermakret ECU with better cam and crank triggers, which would also solve the OPs issues with the stock ECU. He could then run any aftermarket or even OEM ignition coils, and there are some pretty impressive, innexpesive units you can get that are waaaaaaay better than stock, and when coupled with more precise timing of fuel and spark, that leads to a much better combustion event.
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldOnNotDoneAccelerating View Post
what engine you have? turbo?
you know you're gonna get a lot of people here telling you their stock ignition is fine up to 400hp and more and that MSD's are terrible?
unless you're setup is balls out, i'd say spark is the least of your probs. honda spark is good
Here is my setup. https://d-series.org/forums/forced-in...-z6-build.html
That is easier than typing it all back out. And to the topic. It is what it is. I like using honda's ignition. I really hadnt ever had a problem with it. Keeping things simple is the best way. And seems like its the honda way. lol But i've had msd as well, on numerous occasions. And have had msd fail on me a few times. msd doesnt make a dizzy for the d-series like they do a b-series, so you have to look for the alternatives(which everyone has their own way of doing things. With the M&W, i will be replacing the ignitor as well. More or less, like getting rid of it using the M&W box. I think that it will solve the problem at my hand. And all i was doing, was sharing my situation.


Thank for the input. And Acid-Beaver too.
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