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Old 04-04-2009, 04:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Injectors, whats the difference

so i am looking for injectors for my d16a6 vitara build for my 4wd crx (more info on that later ^.^)

anyways

what is the differnece between



Impedence 12ohm (high)
Nozzle Style Disc


and.......


Impedance 2ohm (low)
Nozzle Style Ball & Seat





disc injectors are pretty much plug and play correct? that is my only knowledge, but my information may be missled
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:10 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wdCRX View Post
so i am looking for injectors for my d16a6 vitara build for my 4wd crx (more info on that later ^.^)

anyways

what is the differnece between



Impedence 12ohm (high)
Nozzle Style Disc


and.......


Impedance 2ohm (low)
Nozzle Style Ball & Seat





disc injectors are pretty much plug and play correct? that is my only knowledge, but my information may be missled
x2
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:00 PM   #3 (permalink)
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well low impendents injectors require you to use a resistor box. thats all I know. that, and if I ever saw tittie's that big I'd go play some bongo's on them
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:06 PM   #4 (permalink)
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i should check this out myself...
but my quick answer is, depends on ecu or manufacturer. 1 went with 1 type then some one else designed the other and thought it was better but 1st guy stuck with his original design not wanting to go with other guys idea...
you get the idea!
but i will find a proper answer for ya...
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldOnNotDoneAccelerating View Post
i should check this out myself...
but my quick answer is, depends on ecu or manufacturer. 1 went with 1 type then some one else designed the other and thought it was better but 1st guy stuck with his original design not wanting to go with other guys idea...
you get the idea!
but i will find a proper answer for ya...
i dont have a damn clue what you just said.... ha
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Impedance
Injector impedance describes the electrical resistance of the solenoid windings. These are usually grouped in two categories:

Low- 1.7 to 3.0 ohms (Peak and Hold Driver/Injectors)
These type of injectors and drivers may also be called current sensing or current limiting. They are more expensive and complex than saturated circuit drivers, and are not generally used with domestic production ECUs. They are primarily used in aftermarket high performance systems. Most high flow injectors are low resistance (2-5 ohms) and use a peak and hold driver to activate them. The Peak current is the amount required to quickly jolt the injector open, and then the lower Hold current rating is used to keep it open for as long as the ECU commands. These require the extra kick from the higher current to keep the opening and closing time of the injector stable at the higher fuel flow rate. With this type of driver, 12 volts is still delivered to the injector, but due to the its low resistance, the current in the driver circuit is high. How high? Using Ohms’s Law we can calculate the current rating (12v/2 ohms = 6 amps). This is substantial current flow and a Saturated Injector cannot handle it. The drivers also come in two values; 4 amp peak/1 amp hold, and 2 amp peak/0.5 amp hold. Even though 6 amps may be available to operate the injector, the maximum it is allowed to reach is 2 or 4 amps, depending on the driver’s current limit.

High- 10 to 16 ohms (Saturated Circuit Drivers/Injectors)
Most domestic OE production EFI systems use an ECU with 12 volt Saturated Circuit drivers. These are very inexpensive, simple, and reliable. This type of driver works by supplying 12 volts to the injectors and the ECU turns it on and off to establish a fuel injector pulse. In general, if an injector has a high resistance specification (12-16 ohms) the ECU uses a 12 volt saturated circuit driver to control it. This means that the current flow in the driver and injector circuit stays low keeping the components nice and cool for long life. Conversely, a downfall of a Saturated Circuit driver is that it has a slower response time (and closing time) than a peak and hold type. This slower time can somewhat decrease the usable operating range of the injector energized by this driver. An injector operating on a saturated circuit driver typically has a reaction time of 2 milliseconds while a peak and hold driver typically responds in 1.5 ms.

There are some exceptions to this, notably the Bosch 803 injector used on the Porsche 944 turbo which is 4.7 ohms. Most manufacturers have used both types at one time or another. The trend lately is to use high impedance types in most production cars. The best way to determine impedance is to put a digital ohmmeter across the two electrical connections and see what it reads. The primary advantage of low impedance injectors is a shorter triggering time. When large injectors are fitted to high output engines, low impedance injectors will often give a better idle quality because of this fact. The primary advantage of high impedance injectors is the fact that less heat is generated in the drive circuit and often no external resistors are used.

Nozzle Types

There are essentially 3 different types of nozzles:
Pintle

This is the most common type and still the best. A tapered needle sits on a tapered seat. When the solenoid is energized, the core and needle is pulled back, allowing the fuel to discharge. This design has been well proven for over 30 years.
Disc


Bosch disc injector
Lucas disc injector


The Bosch disc type uses the same type of actuation mechanism as the pintle type but replaces the pintle with a flat disc and a plate with tiny holes. These work fine with a good spray pattern but are slightly more prone to deposits plugging the holes. The Lucas type buries the disc up inside the body to reduce the mass of the assembly for quicker response. The Lucas types typically have a very narrow spray pattern which can affect idle and throttle response in some cases.

Ball

The Rochester division of GM makes the ball type injector for OE applications as well as the larger flow race types for MSD. These use a ball and socket arrangement. These have excellent atomization and a wide spray pattern but are also prone to partial plugging by varnish deposits.

source: Fuel Injector information & Specifications specs
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard's blood View Post
i dont have a damn clue what you just said.... ha
sorry, makes sense t me. maybe i should spend a little time thinkin these posts thru before postin. was in a rush t find out what's the difference in the injectors. never checked it myself!
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Great info!
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Old 04-04-2009, 11:17 PM   #9 (permalink)
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i have the obd-1 injectors on my obd-0 crx it came that way when i bought it. just doesnt need the resister box. i dotn even see a plug for the box. i think my engien harness is a jdm crx sir harness. its OBD0 and it has the vtec wires in it.
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Old 04-06-2009, 06:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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your awesome thanks for the info guys
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Old 04-06-2009, 09:35 AM   #11 (permalink)
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hondata does not recommend using peak and hold and they specifically say not to use DSM 450's

Hondata :: View topic - DSM Injectors

I use DSM 450cc peak and hold with a resistor box and they seem to run the car fine but I understand that there are different ecu drivers for peak and hold and saturated. Hondata recommends sticking with saturated because that is the driver that they and honda use.

I do have some electrical issues at high rpm like datalogging cutting out and am thinking of switching back to saturated.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:03 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC_STUDENT View Post
I use DSM 450cc peak and hold with a resistor box and they seem to run the car fine but I understand that there are different ecu drivers for peak and hold and saturated. Hondata recommends sticking with saturated because that is the driver that they and honda use.

I do have some electrical issues at high rpm like datalogging cutting out and am thinking of switching back to saturated.
that would be along my line of thinking too after i've read into this subject a little. stick with whatever type your ecu has drivers most suited to. peak and holds obviously need a very clear strong signal far different to what a saturated driver provides. resistance box isn't really a proper fix, is it?? might find you get more control over fuelling too maybe?
on the other hand... upgrade the ecu (most tuners in ireland won't touch hondata's and those that do, still hate them. but then again some of them are just ignorant rednecks so it's not much to go on LOL)
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOHC_STUDENT View Post
hondata does not recommend using peak and hold and they specifically say not to use DSM 450's

Hondata :: View topic - DSM Injectors

I use DSM 450cc peak and hold with a resistor box and they seem to run the car fine but I understand that there are different ecu drivers for peak and hold and saturated. Hondata recommends sticking with saturated because that is the driver that they and honda use.

I do have some electrical issues at high rpm like datalogging cutting out and am thinking of switching back to saturated.
low impedance are fine. thats what the resistor box is for... now if you dont use the resistor box, then thats when you fry the injector drivers
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