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Old 07-17-2006, 06:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Putting a ZC head on a D16a6. pics.

I remember a guy on here ages ago who had put a ZC 1st gen head onto a sohc block.
This inspired me to see what i could do with the 2nd generation head as i was looking for a new motor which I would turbo.
My current ZC and D16a9 dohc were both blowing smoke and I had access to a d16a6 short block brand new from Honda (New Zealand) for $240 kiwi but didn't want to go back to a sohc head after the ZC.

here's what i had to do...

The short block was a 1994 nzdm d16a6 9.3:1 compression motor and I had a spare HM2 jdm ZC head.
Obviously as most of you know the head bolt holes dont line up between the sohc and the dohc but I have found a perfectly easy and legitimate way around it.
Those who have said in the past that it cant be dont are going to have to re-think thier theory.

The Block

The ZC has 11mm head bolts form factory while the d16a6 I had has 10mm, in drilling out the 10mm holes in the block and tapping them for a 12mm you allow your self a bit of leeway +/- 1mm either side of the center of the hole in the head in any direction you need to when you re-drill the head to suit.
This allows (if you want) the studs or bolts to stay central in the new holes you'll be drilling without having oval holes.

It also gives the chance to upgrade from the piddly standard 10mm bolts.

To do this all you need is a mill (or drill press but I wouldn't recommend it, better to have a bit of accuracy and weight to stop vibration etc) set up exactly perpendicular to the surface of the table.

Cut the top off an old 10mm bolt and discard the top and de-burr and shank where you cut it through.

Put the stripped engine block rightway up on the table of the mill ( you may need to wind out the sump pan studs to get it flat on the bottom.

Use whats left of the bolt to centre the block and hole you wish to start on perfectly under the chuck by clamping the bolt shank in the chuck and winding it into the existing thread.
Clamp the block in position.
Unwind the bolt and remove from the chuck.
Fit a 10.2mm drill bit and drill out the exising thread right to the bottom of the hole.
Keeping the block in place to keep the centre now fit a long series 12mm x 1.75 tap and use the chuck once again (unpowered!) to wind the tap in and cut the new thread.
Buy two taps and grind one flat on the end so you can tapp right to the bottom of the hole. Use the standard one first and then the flat bottom one to finish the hole.
Use meths to assist the cutting in the aluminium and take it slowly.
You wil need to use compressed air to continually remove swarf from the bottom of the hole if you are going to tap all the way down.

Repeat the above steps on all 10 holes.

Do not unclamp the engine block until you have finished drilling and tapping the hole. Only unclamp between holes.

Your local engineering supply store will be able to supply 12mm x 1.75 12.9 grade high carbon allen head cap screws with you can use to hold down the head.
They are almost as expensive as ARP so if you want the piece of mind that a bid brand will give you go with ARP.

Or use studs, use what ever you like or what you can afford.

Stock bolts are 10.2 grade so the 12.9 is a step stronger.

Heres a pic of my finished block with the bolts would in to show the size of the new bolts, they are a huge increase on the stock bolts. There is no way in hell you will break one of these, it'll pull out of the thread before it snaps.

The lengths I needed were 185mm for the oil feed bolt as it's longer than the rest.
150mm for all the reast except for one which was 140mm.
I do not suggest buying your bolts first, each block could be different in hole depth depending on what year you use. Fit and measure to suit, all the nessessary lengths are available.
You will also need new washers, you can get what they call "Hard Flats" in a 12mm inner hole which you can use but make sure the external diamenter can still sit in the seat for it ontop of the head. Keep the thicknessass close to original as possible but you have plenty of room under the cams to pack the bolts up if you are worried about the bolts bottoming out in the block.

When the blocks done and cleaned, this is a good time to fit a block gaurd, I am skeptical about peoples claims of them causing hot-spots as they mount so far down the water jacket that they are miles away from the combustion chamber anyway.


The Head

The top left hole is out the most, and is the exception. It requires that the hole be completely redrilled off centre and will mean a slightly eleptical hole even when re-drilled to fit the 12mm bolt.
You will see when looking inside a ZC head that the seats where the bolt washer sits in have been milled vertically from above with what i remember being a 22mm cutter. You will have to re-seat the top left hole on the new centre by cutting vertically with a flat botom milling bit from above.
This will eat away at the edge of the cam seat but that's exactly what honda has done on a few of the other holes from factory. And it does not affect the operation of the oil feed or wet bearing. Just make sure you dont leave burs on the cam seat.

The stock d16a6 head gasket can be used to find the appropriate centres on the head. There are actually 3 holes which dont centre properly but bu the time you have put a 14mm drill bit through them for the 12mm bolts, there seems to be enough clearance and i did not bother to re-centre them. If you wanted to now is the oppurtunity.
I used the gasket to find the centre of the one hole that is majorly missaligned and then drilled a [b]12.5mm[b/] hole through the head for the bolt to pass through.

What 0.5mm clearance you're saying? No it's actually more than that because the unthreaded part of a 12mm cap screw is smaller than 12mm as the thread is forged and sticks out proud, but also because the hole is eliptical because of the interference with the other existing hole.
I would not suggest using a 14mm bit here as it gets really thin around the water jacket behind the heater flange. You'll see what i mean when you take a look.
Drill all the rest of the holes at 14mm using the original centres and then check everything lines up.
here it is all drilled out, sorry for the shit pic it's off my phone.

I used the ZC dohc gasket because the water feed holes over the wet liner lined up and the sohc gasket doesn't.
All other oil feeds and returns line up ok though.
heres the finished item.


why do it?

A challenge, because so many people either say it cant be done (when it clearly easily can) or really wanted to know if it was possible.

It was cheap.

The ZC head has a 43cc combustion chamber and with the d16a6 -3cc pistons it makes for 8.3:1 compression, perfect for turboing.

If you were going NA use the ZC PM7 or P29 pistons.

For those of you in the US it'll be cheaper to by or import a ZC head than it will be to get a whole motor and you wont be able to prove the k's of the motor.

New ZC's are no longer available but new d16a's are!

Happy hybriding.
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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not too shabby, but id still like to see the HG placed on top of the block to see how everything lines up.

have you ran it yet? 8.3 seems super low, way lower than id ever want to go
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:10 PM   #3 (permalink)
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have you been able to run the motor yet?
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:11 PM   #4 (permalink)
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i need to see it run! a motor on the floor doesnt say it works. ive seen thousands of pics about people puttin B20 heads on a accord motor. noone could ever prove that it ran. no vids, no meets, nothin
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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how do you know those bolts wont stretch and pop a HG?? you are kind of guessing on that aspect...
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:33 PM   #6 (permalink)
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what they said
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Congrats. Get it runing, keep us updated.
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan89crx
not too shabby, but id still like to see the HG placed on top of the block to see how everything lines up.
Yeah I should have taken a pic, I cant now, the motors in the car and as soon as I've finished making my loom I'll fire it up.
The oil return holes from the head line up fine, they are also unpressurised so even if they were out slightly there would be no adverse effect.
The oil feed is identical and there is more than enough room around the bolt to flow oil to the head.
The water feeds make no difference where they are as long as they are above the open deck water jacket which they are. because it is a ZC head and a ZC gasket the gasket holes line up with the head and open through into the water jacket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan89crx
have you ran it yet? 8.3 seems super low, way lower than id ever want to go
I had a de-compressed ZC late last year putting down 170wkw, it was also 8.3:1 but ran a copper spacer plate and dual head gaskets. It was a PG6 pistoned zc doch browntop.
It’s the doner for the turbo and ecu etc for this motor, it was in an E-AT ’84 civic, the motor’s still fine on removal, the car was in an accident, but the motors no use for my ’89 EF.
(i do have a pic of that )



I'll be blowing 14psi through it and the internals are unforged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan89crx
how do you know those bolts wont stretch and pop a HG?? you are kind of guessing on that aspect...
I can see your concern but I’m not guessing. They are 12.9 grade, higher tensile than the Oem ones which are 10.8 grade.
In a 2mm bigger diameter.
They were recommended to me by an engineering firm here in Auckland, the bolts are primarily used in the plastic injection molding industry to keep high pressure injection mold tools together. The longest one was $18 for one bolt.
They will not stretch I say that with confidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buds302
I need to see it run! a motor on the floor doesnt say it works. ive seen thousands of pics about people puttin B20 heads on a accord motor. noone could ever prove that it ran. no vids, no meets, nothin
Yeah I can understand that. Watch this space.

I’m about a fortnight away from firing it up.
I’m making a loom which is proving time consuming and I don’t want to rush it and cock it up.

I don’t mind the fact that people don’t think this will work, that’s why I did it.
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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well im excited to see it run. i hope you have good luck with it
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Old 07-17-2006, 09:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Nice work ....
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Old 07-18-2006, 06:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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im not doubting it will work, it seems like you have taken some thought and time through this so i too wish best of luck to you.
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Old 07-18-2006, 06:57 AM   #12 (permalink)
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looks nice man...can't wait to see the vid's!
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:18 AM   #13 (permalink)
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very nice.
I've seen a d15 with ZC head as well... someone on Honda-Tech had it, turboed as well, but obviously not being a B, it didn't get mutch respect over there.

I was also wondering if this could be done with a D16Y block and still keeping it OBD2...
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:36 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Keep up the good work!!! Put all the non-believers in their place...
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:47 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Keep up the good work!!! Put all the non-believers in their place...
well im still skeptical. when i see it run and perform well is when that will stop.

the main thing that would cause me to never do this is the fact that there is little to no gain doing this. the heads dont flow as well as a stock a6 head, and the aftermarket support for the head is nil, I.E. springs, retainers, cams(that arent regrinds). all that work and he could have had a sohc that makes more power.

but power isnt everything, and i give mad props for originality.
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:54 AM   #16 (permalink)
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power isnt everything, and i give mad props for originality.
That's pretty much the point. And if it becomes more commonly known (and it actually works) it gives some people yet another option. Especially people who may have thrown a rod or spun a bearing in their Dohc ZC.
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:12 AM   #17 (permalink)
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nice intelligent way to make your own motor that hopefully with some sort of black magic will run like a raped-ape
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:18 AM   #18 (permalink)
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That's pretty much the point. And if it becomes more commonly known (and it actually works) it gives some people yet another option. Especially people who may have thrown a rod or spun a bearing in their Dohc ZC.
very true, especially since the dohc motors are getting harder to come by.
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Old 07-18-2006, 03:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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That's pretty much the point. And if it becomes more commonly known (and it actually works) it gives some people yet another option. Especially people who may have thrown a rod or spun a bearing in their Dohc ZC.
There was one difference i've found which was annoying, the ZC has a water to oil cooler before the filter and when i went to swap it over to the d16a6 block I noticed there is no water line plumb-back into the block on the a6.

A freind of mine found this same difference beween the b16a1 and the b16a2. Apparently the a2 runs no cooler and has oil squirters on the rods instead.

The intermediate shaft mounting points are stil there on the a6 block and they are even tapped and ready to go which puzzles me because I have never seen a factory fitted intermediate shaft on a sohc motor.

The dohc water pump fitted the sohc block, and so did the cam belt tensioner. Not sure about the oil pump as the new a6 block came complete with a pump already on it. (I've had that ported for flow and the oil pressure limiter lowered to 65psi so I dont keep popping seals in the turbo)
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Good luck! Post vids right away.
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