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Old 08-16-2017, 05:43 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Oil/water temps too high. How big of oil rad is too big?

Afternoon gents.

The patient is 10.7:1 turbo d16. 75.5 CP/Eagle/ARP, honed/decked block, milled head(valve guides, springs, RM st 5 cam), oem hg, 1.3 bar oem rad cap. I am not pushing coolant. Definitely not getting detonation.

When on the race track, coolant temps would start going up(on the oem gauge), just after a minute, minute and a half(one lap). Then I would have to cool down for another lap.
At first I went with 40mm single rad. The current turbo and ex.manifold do not allow for a full rad. That, of course was not enough, so I did a custom shroud, with a 12' 1640CFM Spal fan. That was, yet again, not enough, so I ended up adding a second 27mm core, behind the present 40mm while re-using the full face shroud and fan. I also added one port on top of the rad and one on the bottom to cool the turbo (thermo syphoning), as it was connected to the tb/iacv hose before, which was returning the heated water back in the head, if I am not mistaken. Some pix of the making and fitment:















With the last mod of the cooling rad/fan, a month ago I went on the race track again. Ambient temps were 46 oC, not the best for racing. After the second lap, the coolant temps started to climb again. There was a new problem, too - the oil pressure was like 2 bars at 4k. I don't have any oil cooler/warmer, or rad, so I was not very surprised. As soon as the engine cooled down in the pit, the oil pressure would come back up. The oiling system consists of new oem ported oil pump, bearings on the loose side and 10w60 fully synthetic oil. Apparently I need to add oil rad, as well, if I want to keep engine temps down.
I believe if I bring down oil temps, this will take a lot of load from the cooling system. I came up with the idea, to re-use the oem AC rad, as oil rad(with no fan). For the purpose, I ordered some AN10 fittings (that will be welded on the AC rad), ss braided hoses and a sandwich plate with a thermostat.
I am doing custom twin scroll exhaust manifold, to use with my g-pop shop kit rebuilt, 10.5T Ti TME turbo(and getting rid of the restricting gtr turbo - less back pressure, too), so I will make sure I leave enough room for the oil rad.
I need bullet proof cooling, as with the new turbo, I am likely to make 50 - 60% more power and I plan on slapping another built head during the winter for 12:1 CR
I also have DIY 15bar water/meth (90:10) injection.

Basically I have two questions:
1. Is the AN10 not restricting the oil flow? I couldn't find any AN12 sandwich plates, to use and having in mind that all the oil is going to go through the rad, it feels a bit small.
2. The oem AC rad is 16mm thick iirc, I could possibly fit 40mm water rad, customized to work as oil rad. Would this be overkill? Really, how much is too much?

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Old 08-19-2017, 07:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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i run a full size scirocco rad and a 19 row oil cooler with a thermostatic plate. Oil is usually under 190 cruising until im rallycrossing or sustained 75+ mph. i have a vented hood as well, but i also have a skidplate from the traction bar all the way back to the floor of the car in my EF wagon. the summit 19 row would probably sit in front of your half size nicely. More capacity and less heat into your oil will put less strain on the water temps as well.

ive had no pressure issues with a -10 either.

just get a bar and plate from summit, itll cost you less than a condenser anyway. even the 34 row is only $115 https://www.summitracing.com/search/...rder=Ascending
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Heat shield from the downpipe would help pretty dramatically.
Water wetter is a good product.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
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So I've found out that with an oil cooler it's good to run a larger oil filter and I found these Mahle/clevite OC330 oil filters that have larger capacity. It's supposed to help increase oil pressure. If that helps any.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:03 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowturbocx View Post
Heat shield from the downpipe would help pretty dramatically.
Water wetter is a good product.
You can not really tell, by looking at the pictures, but there is thermal insulation between the rad and the dp. It consists of thermal wrap, covered with thin, aluminum foil. The China ex.manifold would not survive the heat wrap, so I came up with this








As for the water wetter - I am using it, although I am not sure if it has any positive effect. It is not worse, for sure, so why not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty d View Post
So I've found out that with an oil cooler it's good to run a larger oil filter and I found these Mahle/clevite OC330 oil filters that have larger capacity. It's supposed to help increase oil pressure. If that helps any.
Have you measured any difference?
I usually use oem s2000 filter, as it is supposed to be better then the oem d/b filter.

Thank you for the input guys, keep it coming.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:22 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAMER View Post
You can not really tell, by looking at the pictures, but there is thermal insulation between the rad and the dp. It consists of thermal wrap, covered with thin, aluminum foil. The China ex.manifold would not survive the heat wrap, so I came up with this








As for the water wetter - I am using it, although I am not sure if it has any positive effect. It is not worse, for sure, so why not.



Have you measured any difference?
I usually use oem s2000 filter, as it is supposed to be better then the oem d/b filter.

Thank you for the input guys, keep it coming.

This would be a good job for ceramic coating. The coating goes on the inside and outside of exhaust piping, so less heat going into the metal as well as less heat coming out. This will reduce heat damage to the metal. This should also greatly reduce under hood temps.

I do really like the idea of a vented hood and adding a belly pan. That should really help direct the air through your radiator and oil cooler and out the engine compartment.

Are you sure that your thermostat and thermoswitch are operating correctly? Maybe you could lower their settings a bit, something like a 160*F thermostat and 180*F fan setting....

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Old 08-21-2017, 09:55 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Hmm......


I would think to use a rad not as thick. Having that thick rad right up on the exhaust housing is your main issue. Not the oil cooling.

If the engine is running warmer then the oil will also be warmer. Im just wondering Why the need for this huge rad?

Ive used Mishimoto with a Mardyne 1300CFM fan and everything was fine


Personally, that DP needs to be away from anything your trying to keep cool. Thermal wrap, tape, etc isnt going to help you in this situation
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:17 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Fwiw, I was having issues with my turbo zc running hot.

What I did was make some air diverter paneling and "boxed" in the radiator, so it would not only catch, but also force incoming air to go through the radiator, not just hit the face, and allowing it to spill off the sides. This brought cruising Temps from 210, down to 190~195
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:27 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Heres a few pics to illustrate
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theotherchris View Post
Heres a few pics to illustrate
Great illustration.

Another benefit to running the scirocco radiator which is that since it's so much wider, there isn't much room for air to go around it.

I know with your turbo setup, that might make it difficult but you should be damming the air entirely through your radiator since it's an aero benefit as well
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:00 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theotherchris View Post
Fwiw, I was having issues with my turbo zc running hot.

What I did was make some air diverter paneling and "boxed" in the radiator, so it would not only catch, but also force incoming air to go through the radiator, not just hit the face, and allowing it to spill off the sides. This brought cruising Temps from 210, down to 190~195
This. OP, I was going to suggest something along these lines before I read all the way to the bottom.

The shroud you've built and the fan are great and all, but you've slowed flow out of the radiator and have not done anything to force air in. Just looking at your setup your spillage rate is probably huge.

Fan shrouds are great for helping the fan pulls air from the full face of the radiator while the car isn't moving. Once the car is moving, the fan becomes less effective than the air coming in at speed and the whole thing becomes a blocker. Using diverter panels like theotherchris did (nice work btw) to force flow to go through the rad should get you some results.

Next step, imo, would be to consider a dual pass radiator.
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:44 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Get you some of that!
Exhasut System Header Wrapping

Wrap the manifold and downpipe, should help.
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Old 09-11-2017, 06:46 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Air is going to take the path of least resistance, and as your radiator is just floating in free space, most of the air is going around the radiator and is at the mercy of the high temps in the engine bay to regulate the engine temps.

All of the air coming in through the center of the front section should be directed or forced to go through the radiator.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:34 PM   #14 (permalink)
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thicker is not always better, as the air passes through the first portion of your radiator it is heated up tremendously and by time it gets to the second section it can absorb very little heat due to the differences in temperature being so low. this is why a 1.5'' radiator can outperform a 3'' thick radiator if it has the same surface area, or in other words is wider/taller. its also harder to force air through a thicker rad than a thinner one reducing cfm through the rad.

if you cant fit one large wide radiator on the front, you might consider splitting the radiator in two one for each side with a small piece of hose to join them on the bottom/top.

i also would not add any more heat to the cooling system and keep the oiling cooling system separate as your already on a knife edge to keep the engine cooled. depending on what your outside conditions are 150* oil is enough, 180 preferably to ensure water does not collect after short runs of the engine, a thermostat would be best. but again, if you live in the desert like i do, i wouldnt worry about a thermostat when its 100+ for 6 months out of the year and very dry.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:43 PM   #15 (permalink)
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the scirocco rad tuck is a 2 core dual pass and quite effective.
I rarely see 200+ on water and rarely 210 on oil when racing in the summer, I have a hood vent but nowhere for the air to go under the car.

that half size REALLY requires ducting like lowflyin said. they can be plenty effective but you have to get the air through them at speed. make some aluminum plates to funnel that air in. you should see the hole in the front bumper of the miata he endurance races, smaller than that half size but i can guarantee you all the air that enters it is forced to go through the rad.

Lots of good advice here though. Wider is definitely better, block your airgaps with anything you can (plastic, tape, aluminum, whatever), keep the systems seperate, shroud your fan, wrap the exhaust or add heat shields, vent the bay if you need to after that(but you shouldnt unless you have a giant skidplate or splitter going from the crossmember to the cabin floor.

i will have to use a blockoff plate to get the oil up to temp in the winter though, i can already tell that.
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Old 10-08-2017, 03:32 AM   #16 (permalink)
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The whole idea for the thick rad, came when I was looking at the sheepy and spal(or fal?) rads, that look like 100mm thick. I agree, that the thicker, the less effective, but if the top shelf companies are making them, there must be some measurable difference. I wish I could go wider, but my only option was thicker.

As far as the thermostat, I have a new oem one, but it was the same with the new Gates I was using before.

Ceramic coating is not an option in Bulgaria, as it is either not available as a service, or it would cost way too much. Thermal wrap, however...

So I was back with the car for a bit and managed to work on it. My effort was mostly towards changing the gtr turbo/china ex. manifold,

with an evo 6.5 TME rebuilt unit and making it fit by cutting a nice twin scroll RSP, 3mm thick, SS evo exhaust manifold and welding it to a laser cut SS, d-series flange. Shht, don't tell the evo guys

[url][/url
I had to use and re-shape some SS cones, some ss pipe, but at the end it all went in nicely and transient


I wanted to fit the AC rad(as oil rad), but there was no chance that it fits with the current ex. manifold, so I ended up getting a 50mm thick / 30 row oil rad.
I placed it on the AC rad stands, bit it still clears nicely the manifold. No pic of that, sorry.
Naturally, I had to port the Chinese sandwich plate, as it is a full flow unit, but the opening for the cold oil was no more than 8mm(equivalent) and it could possibly lead to oil starvation and wear. The hot side of the oil thermostat was better, but still needed some porting, to make the flow more linear. It all turned out good in the end. Here is a pic of it, all together

Back to the cooling. I've been reading all the above ideas in this site, during the years and I am very happy to see them all summed up in one place. My cooling plan(that I will have to finish in January, when I will be back with the car), includes the following:
1. Direct air, so that it could only go towards the water/oil radiators and intercooler.
2. Hood vents, to decrease under hood temps and somewhat lower the pressure behind the rads I actually purchased a fibreglass hood(and doors, and a rear hatch) and started adding Al louvres, 200 x 100mm on it . As of the moment, it has 4 x 2 of them, approximately above the intake manifold and I plan on adding another 3 x 2 on top of the exhaust manifold, as well. I could add more, but I am trying to keep water away from cables/connectors, in the case of rain/washing. Might as well add a plate under the rad/s with a few more louvres. No pic of the hood, just one of a louvre. It will all be painted the same color as the car, in the end.

3. Oil rad check. As of the moment, the turbo is only oil cooled I hope the oil rad is sufficent, to keep oil temps down, but if the water temps show to be stable, during racing, I will reconnect them as well, to prolong the life of the turbo.
4. Front lip and splitter I have my eyes on a cs style front lip, that seems to be perfect for a DYI splitter. It looks like it would fill the gap between the bumper and the splitter, helping with the flow towards the rads.
92-95 Honda Civic 2Dr 3Dr CS Style Front Bumper Lip Spoiler | eBay
5. Wrap the turbo, O2 housing and dp.
6. High flow fan and a full face shroud, 1' away from the rad check. I will add a switch in the car, to turn the fan on demand. I know it is very helpful to run the fan after a race, to help cool things down.

The way I see the things you need high pressure, directed flow in front of the rad/s and low pressure behind them(both on top and bottom), in order to keep the efficiency high and temps down. All sources of heat, should also be insulated.
.

What is your opinion guys on drilling some holes in the front bumper, like this - http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8015/6...b70c6bfd_o.jpg
Do you think it would make any difference in the cooling(as I find it a bit rice)?

If you have any other suggestions, I will be happy to hear them.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:13 AM   #17 (permalink)
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adding a secondary radiator under the car or in the bumper is also a worthwhile endeavor if you find you need the extra cooling.
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Old 10-14-2017, 05:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Jdm mad tyte exposed oil cooler man! Duct it as described, looks almost exactly like a pnw endurance racers radiator setup running a b16, very successful car. Then install the oil cooler on the opposite side of the bumper or at the base of your windshield on the passenger side lol


Then drill speed holes in your bumper
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:21 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Back from the dead.
I managed to fix the air leaks, around the rads - happy to report, that the outcome is excellent. Went to the race track in September, it was hot, but the overheating was gone, even without the water/meth injection. I could still feel a lot of heat trapped under the hood, but I am yet to install the vented hood and the cs style lip. Here are some pix:

P.S. This China tape is not suitable to be used as a heat wrap, even on top of the existing heat wrap. It fell off right away
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:15 AM   #20 (permalink)
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There was another member on here who cut the hood and added a mustang hood vent to help with under hood temps, it didn't look too bad either

https://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-...r-install.html

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