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Old 06-14-2013, 05:22 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default H2B and F2B w/o the plate!

Advantages over a kit using a plate: Hood clearance, better motor angle, unmodded headers (some bolt right to your stock cat!), more "meat" left where you grind the oil pan seal for the halfshaft, more clearance for a turbo (1" more than a b-series), more clearance between the frame & crank pulley, no extra-long flywheel bolts that sometimes back out, unchanged angle for slave cyl works just like stock.

Disadvantages: if you use OEM Accord/Prelude driver's mounts, the motor will lean towards the driver's side; H22's may require relocating the proportioning valve; H/F motors with the IACV on the firewall side will require relocating or deleting the IACV.


This can be done with just a few simple hand tools. A dremel is about the most expensive tool you'll need, but that's something no self-respecting car hobbyist should be without anyways.

Tool list:
Demel or rotozip w/barrel type grinding wheels (have spares!)
hacksaw, sawzall, or bandsaw
1/2" drill bit w/hand drill or drill press
1/2" step-bit drill bit aka Unibit (HF has a 3-pc kit)
1/2" Grade 8 bolts: 6", 5", 4.5", 3.5"
1/2" Grade 8 washers (narrow SAE), lock washers, nuts
4"-6" extension bit for the step-bit
Standard tools for swaping an engine



The first thing is to get the crankshaft ground out for a b-series pilot bearing. It needs to be at least 32mm wide and over 2mm deep. I used a stubby grinding bit in a rotozip.




Next you have to drill the flywheel for the pin in the flywheel. You can also grind it off the crank.




After that you enlarge the rear starter hole to 1/2". I used a step drill bit and a 1/4" hex bit extension to reach it all - make sure you start from the block side of the trans. Get creative with the bit (angle it) to slip the 1/2"x6" bolt through, or get a oversized 3-flute drill bit designed for enlarging holes in castings.




Now you can hang the trans from the block via the starter hole & pilot bearing. Drill a 1/2" hole for a 1/2"x5" bolt through the trans hole just above the clutch slave cylinder.




You can also work on that area to get the slave cylinder to fit. It will take some time, but the pics should give you a good start.





You can move up to the block stamp. You need to cut the window a bit longer (downwards) by 1/4". If it's a newer F-series, it may not even have a timing window. Cut it large enough to fit the open tip of a 3/4" box wrench into it.




You need to do some more grinding behind the window. There is a pin that sticks out and needs to be shaved. Beyond that the block webbing between the two top holes needs to be removed a bit. This gives the bolt through the trans a place to sit. If done right it also keeps it from spinning.

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Old 06-14-2013, 05:23 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Moving back & down you need to cut off the rear lower mounting ear off the block. This makes room for the trans. When you have the trans hooked up, you can trace out where to cut by looking at the halfshaft seal.




The back of the block needs the most work, but isn't that hard. It's less grinding than a normal H2B kit. The most important is clearance for the axle boot band. I cut it just into the blind bolt hole that holds the oil pump on. Cut it like you see here and you'll have tons of block material left.





Another spot needs some grinding to avoid hitting the halfshaft bearing carrier. Grind it flush to the block.




The 3rd spot to grind for the halfshaft is one of the VIN mount points. People who need to keep the VIN could probably keep it by using a single bolt on the halfshaft.




The halfshaft adapter plate is relatively easy to make, but easy to mess up too. You start with a 3"x10"x3/8" plate, drill holes for the 3 block holes (below left side of VIN and the 2 that hold the exhaust bracket), then mark & drill holes for the halfshaft. A 1.25" hole can be drilled for the oil dummy light sender. F22's usually just have a plug here, so you doon't have to cut the halfshaft ear off. I was going to convert the H23A to a plug, but figured I'd try it this way. You won't have to grind as much, if any, in the previous step if you use a 1/4" plate with 1/8" spacers. How to align the halfshaft: push the flange flush to the plate, then mark the maximum upward and downward movement; the spot in the middle is the center. If in doubt, the HS should spin smoothly. When it's crooked, it will be very stiff.




The main difference between mine and most of the other plateless swaps is the upper block/transmission brace I made. Most people just use 2 bars of steel and a shitload of washers. I cut tubes a hair thinner than the transmission through-hole thickness, welded them behind the steel bars, then tied the 2 bars together with another chunk of steel bar. The stuff you see is 3/16"x1.25" - in the future I plan to forgo bending that bar and instead use a 3/16"x1.5" bar welded flat (less work, same strength).




My F22 swap was able to use the stock Accord driver's side block bracket & motor mount, with some modding. I had to grind the bolt tube through the rubber on the rear side to fit into the Civic mount holder on the frame. It's just a few MM's too long. For the H23A I didn't have anything, plus I wanted to use the Civic/Integra 3-post mount, so I just made my own bracket. I will eventually add 3 more mounting spots - the block, the head, and the timing cover. Two things to note: I have 2 gussets below the flat plate, and I also put 1/8" of washers between the under the passenger trans mount to drop down & angle the motor slightly. It sits level side to side but has 3/4" clearance from the hood in the tightest spot.


Last edited by HiProfile; 06-14-2013 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 06-14-2013, 05:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Next comes the rear t-bracket modding. You have to cut the top ears off both sides & weld on steel that's an inch or so higher. I keep it b-series compatible by using a 1/32" spacer between the block & ear on the driver's side. B-series blocks are a little thicker here.



This bracket was made for my F22 swap, but the H23A bracket I made looks a little better. I got the plate to cover the original b-series hole so I can drill a hole for a b-series block if I ever want to revert back.




All hardware is either OEM metric 10.8 or SAE Grade 8. So far it's survived lots of abuse with my F22B2 that has 149lb/ft peak and >130lb/ft from 2200rpm to 5500rpm. When I finish the H23A, it will be tested even more...
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Old 06-14-2013, 06:33 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I was planning to do a F2B or even F2D with the conversion plate kits in the near future, but after seeing your threads I will do it your way and save a lot of money. + rep
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:02 AM   #5 (permalink)
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would an F2D be easier due to the lack of intermediate shaft bracketry?
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:15 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It could be, but I think you'd be trading that for a lot more grinding. You also have to use a b-series flywheel & pressure plate, then get a b-series clutch disc with a d-series spline. IIRC people have got them from LSD, and another company (Competition?) makes a d-series flywheel with b-series bolt pattern.

I know SpeedFactory's D2B doesn't use any plate, so I'm sure it can be done. Here's two decent F2D threads that used a plate:

F2D / H2D F20B swap build thread for my 94 hatch (now H23VTEC) - Honda-Tech
i want a build thread too! - Honda-Tech


Edit: It looks like you'd be grinding more around the transmission seal for the CV boot. You may also have to remove the balance shafts, space the crank pulley inwards, and run a different alternator bracket due to the new pulley location. No plate means you probably won't have to cut the driver's frame for the pulley. Page 23 of the first link shows the clearancing needed for the axle, page 6 shows how he shifted the crank pulley over. It also looks like they slave cylinder will require work, it's likely closer to the input shaft's centerline.

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Old 06-20-2013, 09:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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damn! pretty ballsy to start hacking at decent parts. +rep
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:02 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Do any of the dowels line up? It's been awhile since I've compared H to B to D.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:49 PM   #9 (permalink)
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No dowels line up, just the input shaft to the pilot bearing. Needless to say your trans & pilot bearing need to be in tip-top condition.

I wanted to mention the coolant tube situation. The lower rad hose to t-stat is a stock integra (almost all 94+ b-series?), while the top hose is the original 95 accord f22 hose. This works on F22 blocks, not sure yet with H22's. I do know you can cut an integra lower to make a working upper hose for h22's. For the heater core you can use an Integra hose to the t-stat, and an shortened Accord hose (maybe a Prelude too) for the return into the coolant tube.

New hoses are recommended because you can tear the reinforcing fabric when you forcibly remove old hoses. They're really cheap via eBay or Amazon.
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Ok so a few more questions for you...

The stock B series clutch and flywheel bolt right up to the F/H crank bolt pattern, and the spacing works with the clutch hydraulics still??

What alternator are you using?


Lastly, when you drill the first hole... the lower starter hole.... how do you know if you have the engine tilted at the correct angle? and how the hell did you manage to drill through half of that aluminum casing like that? That must have been a bitch.


I am going to be doing this very soon.

Also, looking at the pics in your other thread, it looks like the IM is close to the firewall... I am going to be doing this in an ED, how bad do you think it will be for clearance back there? ED has like 2 inches less space easy.
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:36 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerD View Post
Ok so a few more questions for you...


1) Yes, flywheel & clutch is a direct fit EXCEPT for that crank pin & pilot bearing. The clutch actually pushes a hair too far in F22, but that could be the no-name clutch & fw. A pedal limiter would eliminate that, but its very low on the list of needs.

2) Alternator is the stock H or F alternator, the alternators came with both motors. I'm sure cb7tuner.com has info if the H & F alternators swap between motors. I've seen people use D16 alternators with QSD/Evo H2B kits due to clearance issues. They need to mod them slightly with a grinder, but it works. In any case, they're all nearly as cheap & plentiful as D16 alts.

3) Magic! Actually I just enlarged the hole from ~12mm to 12.7mm, and its only the hole on trans & starter. The block's hole is already the correct size. A step drill, aka Unibit, keeps everything centered. A machinist would use a special casting drill (solid core bit), it has 3-4 flutes and is designed to work almost like a reamer.

4) The H22 only has 1.25" of clearance to the metal of the firewall, while the F22 has a little more. The link below shows that it can be done in an EF/ED chassis, they claim zero chassis modding was done. I think you'd have to move anything mounted to the firewall out of the way. The crank pulley used will require cutting into (or not running) the lower timing belt cover, I bet the upper cover won't fit either. NOTE: Looking at their video now, it looks like they used a QSD or Skunk2 K2H adapter to use a k-series intake manifold on it. The K2H probably saves that 1" with the shortest of the k-series manifold (RBC/RRC), but I'm not sure how close to the t-bracket it comes. I want to get a bare K manifold if it's cheap and seeing for myself.

You may want to PM soloturbo about EF/ED H2B, he has done the most work on plateless H2B setups so far.

H2B EF (NO KIT) PERFECT HOOD CLEARENCE - Honda-Tech
QSD KIM/K2H Intake Manifold Adapter Kit
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:40 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Such as boss.

I can appreciate the time here.

I see Dan trying to emulate this soon in the future.

+rep man. Thanks for the useful info.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:28 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Fyi to all the fyi.

k20 intake manifold can be run on a f22a1/6 head by redrilling some of the holes. So no need for a plate which saves you even more space!
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiProfile View Post
1) Yes, flywheel & clutch is a direct fit EXCEPT for that crank pin & pilot bearing. The clutch actually pushes a hair too far in F22, but that could be the no-name clutch & fw. A pedal limiter would eliminate that, but its very low on the list of needs.

2) Alternator is the stock H or F alternator, the alternators came with both motors. I'm sure cb7tuner.com has info if the H & F alternators swap between motors. I've seen people use D16 alternators with QSD/Evo H2B kits due to clearance issues. They need to mod them slightly with a grinder, but it works. In any case, they're all nearly as cheap & plentiful as D16 alts.

3) Magic! Actually I just enlarged the hole from ~12mm to 12.7mm, and its only the hole on trans & starter. The block's hole is already the correct size. A step drill, aka Unibit, keeps everything centered. A machinist would use a special casting drill (solid core bit), it has 3-4 flutes and is designed to work almost like a reamer.

4) The H22 only has 1.25" of clearance to the metal of the firewall, while the F22 has a little more. The link below shows that it can be done in an EF/ED chassis, they claim zero chassis modding was done. I think you'd have to move anything mounted to the firewall out of the way. The crank pulley used will require cutting into (or not running) the lower timing belt cover, I bet the upper cover won't fit either. NOTE: Looking at their video now, it looks like they used a QSD or Skunk2 K2H adapter to use a k-series intake manifold on it. The K2H probably saves that 1" with the shortest of the k-series manifold (RBC/RRC), but I'm not sure how close to the t-bracket it comes. I want to get a bare K manifold if it's cheap and seeing for myself.

You may want to PM soloturbo about EF/ED H2B, he has done the most work on plateless H2B setups so far.

H2B EF (NO KIT) PERFECT HOOD CLEARENCE - Honda-Tech
QSD KIM/K2H Intake Manifold Adapter Kit




This hole circled in red already exists on a stock untouched H22 block????


I noticed in both threads there isnt one single picture of what that hole looks like from the inside of the "bell housing area".



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Old 07-22-2013, 06:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Bad ass. I would consider all this cutting n shit too if I were to go H2B. Those damn plates are expensive as shit!
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:02 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Good Info for everyone. Although I am using QSD kit this DIY looks doable.
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Old 07-25-2013, 05:36 AM   #17 (permalink)
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D, here's a pic I found on google. The hole in question is visible closest to the bar on the left side. It is a through-hole that is just about 13mm. If you start opening the starter hole on the trans from the block mating surface, it will almost act as a dowel. I've got 3 blocks (H23A, F22B2, F22A6) that all matched up the same after modding them and trying 3 different top trans brackets I made.





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Originally Posted by Pata View Post
Bad ass. I would consider all this cutting n shit too if I were to go H2B. Those damn plates are expensive as shit!
Food for thought, most complete F22's cost half the price of a H2B kit! There's almost no down side to this. To do it right it will take a bit more work (welding a driver's mount bracket & rear t-bracket), but much less than it would take to get a b-series to the same power level.

Last edited by HiProfile; 07-25-2013 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:05 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Takes some balls to go through all that trouble with cutting good parts.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Wow that is hilarious. Sweet man. Thanks for the info.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:22 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Great work, and thanks for sharing

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