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Old 01-07-2017, 07:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Off-season "grocery" list - improving on 156whp NA d16z6

Hey everyone.

I've decided to try and squeeze a little more power out of my d16z6 build from this past summer (2016). It's a high-compression NA d16z6 build. It made 156whp on a Mustang Dyno. Here's the link with the build details and the dyno graph and video.

I figure I can try to get a little more out of it with better induction, fuel delivery and exhaust. I was using a generic cone filter and short-ram intake, d16y8 manifold with ported inlet to 60mm and ported runners, stock 56mm throttle body, Megan racing 4-2-1 header, high-flow catalytic converter and 2.25" Tanabe Medalion exhaust.

There's room for improvement…

I picked up a few things:
- Skunk2 Pro Series intake manifold with 68mm inlet (used)
- 68mm throttle body (used)
- Skunk2 3.5" cone filter with velocity stack
- 410cc RDX injectors
- Injector hats
- RDX injector pigtails


Things on the shopping list:
- Vibrant Ultra Quite 2.5" resonators (one as a resonator, one as a muffler)
- 2.5" exhaust (options are to order a pre-fabricated one or a custom made one from a local shop)
- 1320 RMF 4-1 header (going with this since it's better for high-RPM power and this is mainly a track car - also have the option to have one custom build from the same exhaust shop)

Things to consider:
- 3" short-ram intake
- 3" cold-air intake

I expect that with improved air in, fuel, exhaust out I hope to make a few more ponies.

Let's see how it goes.
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1993 Honda Civic del Sol Si.
NA d16z6 - 158whp

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Old 01-08-2017, 12:51 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I think the bigger tb will hurt your performance
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Old 01-08-2017, 03:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I think the bigger tb will hurt your performance
It's very possible and something I'll be considering when I put it together. Fortunately I also have a 60mm sitting around
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Sell the 68mm, unfortunately that was the wrong idea.

While it may even raise the line what looks to be an acceptable amount, it will result in immeasurable transient losses that will result in the car feeling and driving slower.

But most of the time, the tuner does not tune the transient areas, partial throttle, so its up to the owner, which rarely puts in the effort to figure it out, so it never gets done. Leaving it close(r) to stock will result in the best feeling mods. Not that they are better performing than the others, simply the stock tune is closer.

The Fuel injectors are also a waste, unless you are maxing out duty cycles, you are losing resolution and precision by using a larger injector.

I personally like the Edelbrock manifold better, but was given a S2 off the bat, and it DID show good NA gains. The S2 seemed to open it up almost everywhere, mid/high, while only suffering a small loss of a little of the lower rpm 1-3k perkiniess.

The Edlebrock manifold has more of a "hollow" feel in the pedal, a little more low/mid losses with seemingly unlimited top end.


Both are honestly low R&D, get this out to the kids for as much profit as possible, products. Because its a Honda Civic. And especially cause its a D16. On the S2, the main water pipe has a tendency to honestly just fall out. Hard to believe, but it has happened many times.

On the Edelbrock, the Flange where the IM nuts go on its not fly cut or machined at all. It is as if they didn't test fit it a single time at Edelbrock, and has actually steered me away from their products at all cost. It is such a blind negligence I have a hard time believing it as an honest mistake. Something to think about when supporting or recommending products to friends.


Honestly? I'd be happy with what you have and stop dumping money into this platform. It is only increasingly lossy at your point, a Z6 manifold works pretty damn good.

Pay off some debt, or buy property, a house, or a nicer car, something that increases in value, like collectibles, or a nice dinner for a pretty lady, or spend time with your friends and family..

I think you really did a great job on your build, and one of the few to see the great NA results I did, so whatever route you go, you should know youre already a winner at the D series Game.

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Old 01-10-2017, 06:44 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TheToaster View Post
Sell the 68mm, unfortunately that was the wrong idea.

While it may even raise the line what looks to be an acceptable amount, it will result in immeasurable transient losses that will result in the car feeling and driving slower.

But most of the time, the tuner does not tune the transient areas, partial throttle, so its up to the owner, which rarely puts in the effort to figure it out, so it never gets done. Leaving it close(r) to stock will result in the best feeling mods. Not that they are better performing than the others, simply the stock tune is closer.

The Fuel injectors are also a waste, unless you are maxing out duty cycles, you are losing resolution and precision by using a larger injector.

I personally like the Edelbrock manifold better, but was given a S2 off the bat, and it DID show good NA gains. The S2 seemed to open it up almost everywhere, mid/high, while only suffering a small loss of a little of the lower rpm 1-3k perkiniess.

The Edlebrock manifold has more of a "hollow" feel in the pedal, a little more low/mid losses with seemingly unlimited top end.


Both are honestly low R&D, get this out to the kids for as much profit as possible, products. Because its a Honda Civic. And especially cause its a D16. On the S2, the main water pipe has a tendency to honestly just fall out. Hard to believe, but it has happened many times.

On the Edelbrock, the Flange where the IM nuts go on its not fly cut or machined at all. It is as if they didn't test fit it a single time at Edelbrock, and has actually steered me away from their products at all cost. It is such a blind negligence I have a hard time believing it as an honest mistake. Something to think about when supporting or recommending products to friends.


Honestly? I'd be happy with what you have and stop dumping money into this platform. It is only increasingly lossy at your point, a Z6 manifold works pretty damn good.

Pay off some debt, or buy property, a house, or a nicer car, something that increases in value, like collectibles, or a nice dinner for a pretty lady, or spend time with your friends and family..

I think you really did a great job on your build, and one of the few to see the great NA results I did, so whatever route you go, you should know youre already a winner at the D series Game.
Hey Toaster.

Thanks for the feedback. BUT IT'S NOT OVER!!!

Regarding the tuning, the tuner that I used last year was exceptional. I'm almost certain that he paid attention to the transient areas as you've described them. It was a very thorough job. Of course I can always contact him to confirm if he'll be tuning these areas when I see him next year. If he also advises against using the 68mm, I do have a 60mm to use.

Regarding the fuel injectors, I believe that I am likely to see an improvement. Another member of this forum and occasional track buddy had his d16y8 with bolt-ons - including the same injectors - tuned by the same tuner on a Mustang Dyno and made 150whp the day after I did. You can see his thread here. Given that I had made 156whp (mind you I didn't have time for the "fine-tuning" at the cam-gear) with the modifications I've made and he made only 6whp less than I did, I believe there's room for improvement. The main differences were the injectors, a better intake manifold and larger TB as well as a 2.5" exhaust.

I greatly appreciate your recommendations. I'm fortunate enough to have met most of your suggestions by having spent far too much time in school which ultimately allowed me to obtained a great career which I love.

This little ongoing project will remain just that - ongoing - and will do so until I finally decide that I'm ready for a new platform. This is my yoga. My meditation. Perhaps I've taken this as far as I can. Maybe it's enough. But knowing that I haven't explored a few remaining areas from which a little more power can be squeezed will always draw me to their completion. Most importantly, it makes me happy.

It's about balance. This project will never take priority over the most important things in my life which are my wife and son. She supports my passion and I will be passing this onto my son when he becomes old enough to enjoy it. Of course there is the financial aspect of this project but I'm fortunate enough that when all other expenses are met (including treating the Mrs.) I'm left with a little something extra to treat myself with.

Thank you for the wonderful complement. I'm very proud of this build and grateful for the immeasurable help I've gotten from DSO.

Cheers!
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Old 01-30-2017, 03:48 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm in for more results, my high compression z6 could only get to 130hp with a skunk2 and bbk throttle body.
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Old 01-31-2017, 12:24 AM   #7 (permalink)
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We need pictures!!!
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Old 01-31-2017, 08:34 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm in for more results, my high compression z6 could only get to 130hp with a skunk2 and bbk throttle body.
Parts list?
Dyno graph?

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Old 01-31-2017, 08:40 AM   #9 (permalink)
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t25 turbo on a high compression build, you want to talk about yoga that is your option to really tinker forever. you could theoretically get better gas mileage by reducing pumping losses and gain hp. but that is in your hands of course. Only question is how far you can go until you hit the det ceiling.

as far as the 6whp goes, that may be within the range of error on the dyno, hard to say. Although im not belittling your accomplishment.
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Old 01-31-2017, 09:14 AM   #10 (permalink)
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t25 turbo on a high compression build, you want to talk about yoga that is your option to really tinker forever. you could theoretically get better gas mileage by reducing pumping losses and gain hp. but that is in your hands of course. Only question is how far you can go until you hit the det ceiling.

as far as the 6whp goes, that may be within the range of error on the dyno, hard to say. Although im not belittling your accomplishment.
"Downward dog" poses aside, if all I wanted was to make power I would have gotten a turbo a long time ago. Alternatively I could have spent the time and money on a k-swap. But that wasn't the point. It's to build a d-series motor and see what the potential of it is as an NA motor. Gas mileage isn't a concern for this project. It's almost never driven in the road and if so, 9 times out of 10 it's to get to the track. Once I hit that ceiling, or blow up the motor, I'll be looking to the next project. I have another D sitting in the garage. That may be a turbo build or the d16/d17 hybrid I was planning a couple of years ago. Time will tell.

Thanks for your input!
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Old 01-31-2017, 05:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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"Downward dog" poses aside, if all I wanted was to make power I would have gotten a turbo a long time ago. Alternatively I could have spent the time and money on a k-swap. But that wasn't the point. It's to build a d-series motor and see what the potential of it is as an NA motor. Gas mileage isn't a concern for this project. It's almost never driven in the road and if so, 9 times out of 10 it's to get to the track. Once I hit that ceiling, or blow up the motor, I'll be looking to the next project. I have another D sitting in the garage. That may be a turbo build or the d16/d17 hybrid I was planning a couple of years ago. Time will tell.

Thanks for your input!
i didnt know you wanted to stay all motor. if thats the case then pulling the head off and having it sent out to get cnc ported and a nice cam to match it would probably be the next best thing. Since this is a track car mostly it sounds like, you might be best off going higher compression and running race fuel.
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Old 01-31-2017, 05:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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i didnt know you wanted to stay all motor. if thats the case then pulling the head off and having it sent out to get cnc ported and a nice cam to match it would probably be the next best thing. Since this is a track car mostly it sounds like, you might be best off going higher compression and running race fuel.
Hey Cervan.

Thanks for the recommendation. Please check out this link I had included in my original post. It has all the build details, dyno video and dyno chart for my NA high-compression d16z6. It made 156whp on a Mustang Dyno.

Thanks!
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:11 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Why two resonators instead of a resonator and muffler?
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Old 02-01-2017, 02:35 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Why two resonators instead of a resonator and muffler?
I've been advised by my parts supplier and exhaust tech that the Vibrant Ultra Quiet are free flowing and very quiet. Apparently a number of their customers have used this combination and are very happy with it. I'd love to keep my Tanabe muffler but it's only 2.25".
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Old 02-01-2017, 04:27 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Parts list?
Dyno graph?

No dyno graph this was a few years ago. but it was a z6 with p29 pistons, mild port work on the head, skunk2 intake, bbk throttle body, bisimoto v1 header.

It was enjoyable to drive. On e85 if i drove conservative on the freeway for a long trip I could squeeze out high 20s for mpg.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:19 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I am actually surprised at some of the negative feedback here, I say go for it, be very interesting to see what type of gains you see from your "grocery" list. Id personally love to see this thing bang out 165whp, there isnt too many dirty d's on this site that go north of 150, never mind 160whp. ROHC the SOHC!
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:26 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I fully support the reach for my power on the N/a dseries. I wish i wouldnt have sold mine. So much more fun to drive then the stock y8 I have in the sedan.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:45 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I am actually surprised at some of the negative feedback here, I say go for it, be very interesting to see what type of gains you see from your "grocery" list. Id personally love to see this thing bang out 165whp, there isnt too many dirty d's on this site that go north of 150, never mind 160whp. ROHC the SOHC!
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I fully support the reach for my power on the N/a dseries. I wish i wouldnt have sold mine. So much more fun to drive then the stock y8 I have in the sedan.
Feeling the love!
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Old 02-08-2017, 10:49 AM   #19 (permalink)
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My na z6 coupe was a blast to drive around on the street. I can only imagine how much fun it would have been with more power.
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:00 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I can suggest 3 things that will not lose you any power at all.

2.5" or 3" exhaust with megaphone transition from header collector.

Increase in compression from head gasket or piston change, possibly a small mill on the head with mechanical timing changes to compensate.

Ethanol fuel (which will work great with the new injectors). Google the weight % of Oxygen in Ethanol, mind blowing.
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