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Old 09-11-2008, 04:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Running 15.1 AFR's in closed loop (how to)

First off if this need to be moved to DIY, Mods please do so. This may have been covered, but I figured out how to make my ecu run 15.1 in closed loop and I figured I'd share. First you need a LC-1 wideband or a wideband that you can adjust the voltage outputs and you need to use the wideband as your narrowband input. Once your tuned and ready to start running closed loop, set up the LC-1 as your narrowband input and connect it to the o2 sensor input on your ECU. Now in the LM programer go into the whichever output that is sending the narrowband signal to your ECU. Change the option from Lamda to afr. You will notice the AFR's read 14.01 and 15.01. Now if you want your ecu to target 15.1 instead of 14.7 you just cange the AFR values to 14.41 and 15.41. If you want it to target 15.2 you would input 14.51 and 15.51. You just add on the difference from 1.7 to your new target. Your ECU really has no Idea it's running leaner, it's just looking for a specific voltage and your bacically fooling it. I've benn running like this for a few days and it seems to be doing fine. If anyone has any input please do!
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You are fooling the ecu, to read lean values ???

What´s the pont with this ???
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Well I'm fooling it to search for 15.1 instead of 14.7, pretty much for fuel economy. From what I've read 14.7 is only Ideal for emissions. Your engine can actually run leaner. It still richens up under throttle and in boost. It just runs leaner while in closed loop mode. Pretty much while crusing.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
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but I know that you have to adjust your injectors not your wideband parameters, but maybe I´m wrong.
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Old 09-11-2008, 05:00 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Well yes, during tuning you can adjust it to run at what ever you want, but this is just a base for the ecu to run at. Once the tuning is done, most people who live where the temps change often or have a lot of elevation changes will change to closed loop (O2 sensor on). This lets the ECU make changes to the fuel trim for temp and elevation changes. What the ECU is looking for is 14.7, which is great for emissions, but not the greatest for fuel economy. This only effects closed loop operation. When the car is idleing or crusing and light acceleration is when it uses the o2 sensor for corrections. I believe at WOT the ECU switches to open loop. I know in boost I am set up to run open loop and most others do also.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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running leaner does not always mean better fuel economy... sure it uses less hp but if you think about it there must be a median for power made to the weight of the vehicle. during a lean burn( just to make thinks clear, more power can be made from a lean burn at the cost of temp than the richer state for a given air pressure..) on a stock ecu, i would imagine that it would lose some of its power therefore making the engine having to work harder to accelerate the given mass.

more so fooling the ecu via O2 sensor like that im sure plays a toll on the ignition timing being incorrect for the given vacuum and fuel trim being used...
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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You can fool the OEM ECU without a wideband, I know, I did it.
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by transzex View Post
You can fool the OEM ECU without a wideband, I know, I did it.
Truth.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:42 AM   #9 (permalink)
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since you run leaner... during WOT wouldn't you still be running lean for tricking the system?? and cause limp mode for detonation?? i know most hybrids run hella lean but for design of the engine. (i know you said open loop) add fuel
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Old 09-12-2008, 08:28 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Well actually as he said its only about 4% leaner, and the majority of people/cars run most than 4% rich and would be fine and possibly even run better.
Though this doesnt matter due to the fact that it reads from the ECU under WOT. But even still.
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Old 09-12-2008, 08:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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You would think you would getting gas mileage but in return for smog you will get a high NOX count and super heat the cat correct me if im wrong
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Old 09-12-2008, 11:56 AM   #12 (permalink)
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bump just cause I dont want to see your dad´s post
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You would think you would getting gas mileage but in return for smog you will get a high NOX count and super heat the cat correct me if im wrong
Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Lean-burn equipped vehicles (Civic VX/HX/Insight) have unusually large NOx emissions for their engine size, but much lower CO2 emissions due to improved mpg.

They typically have a specially designed NOx adsorbtive catalyst as well as a run mode to burn off the accumulated NOx from it.

Very easy to see the burn off cycle driving the Insight down the highway.

That being said, only 15.1:1? Make it 17-18 if you want to see a difference in economy.
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Old 09-12-2008, 03:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Well I no longer have to smog my car. Wisconsin, just past a law this year that 95 and older vehicles no longer have to pass emissions.

As for trying to run leaner, I actually got the idea from one of bones posts a while back, where he said some people run open loop to get a leaner target afr instead of 14.7 for better fuel economy. I also didn't think the ecu would do much with the timing at only .4 difference in fuel.
So what are some better ways to get better mpg when cruising. I know I'm not going to run 17:1. That's asking for trouble. The only reason I'm asking is because I used to get 40 mpg in my CRX before it started burning oil and before I rebuilt it. Most people seem to get better MPG when they go turbo. Well now I get about 30-35 MPG. I know it's not horrible, but I think I can do better.
Bone, How did you fool the ECU and why if this really doesn't help fuel economy. I always thought 14.7 was for emissions only. Sorry for the long post, I'm just trying to understand the truth about this.
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Old 09-12-2008, 04:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by transzex View Post
You can fool the OEM ECU without a wideband, I know, I did it.
Might I ask how?
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:18 PM   #16 (permalink)
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i run open loop all the time with 16-17:1 afr at part throttle. i'm okay with it.
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Old 09-13-2008, 03:10 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Aero mods are one of the best ways to improve MPG at highway speeds. Make the underbody slick with an airdam up front (unless you like having a very squirely ride at speed), thinner tires to reduce rolling resistance, and putting smaller side view mirrors in place of the stock ones.

Get an EGT gauge and run as lean as you can without missfire and without torching your exhuast manifold.

14.7 Air to gasoline ratio is the stoichiometricly "perfect" ratio to achieve 100% fuel consumption in a chemical reaction. Ignore that. The combustion chamber doesn't care about a certain number, it only works with what it is given. If you want to change how the engine performs, you have to experiment with you with your own theory, build up some data, change, and improve. The scientific method works for cars, too.

Changing the setpoint on the O2sensor is pretty clever. To answer another posters question, it doesn't change power at WOT since the 02 sensor is ignored at WOT. The timing and fuel tables, with a couple of other variables, are used above a certain TPS reading (I forget the stock figure). I like this idea, as it is simple, should be reliable as long as you tune the rest of your power band, and no more expensive than a wideband an some time to mess with stuff. =)
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Old 09-13-2008, 04:35 PM   #18 (permalink)
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dam, I don't have this feature on my PLX M300, I don't think?

how the hell do you do it without a wbo2???????????????????
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Old 09-13-2008, 04:47 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Well either you put it into open loop and disable the o2

or

you decrease the values enough in the tables for the o2 sensor to not be able to compensate quite to 14.7 and u end up around 15:1
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:06 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Well either you put it into open loop and disable the o2

or

you decrease the values enough in the tables for the o2 sensor to not be able to compensate quite to 14.7 and u end up around 15:1
If you decrease the values that much, won't it end up having lean problems in cold weather? I don't know about you guys, but where I live we can have a 30 degree differance from morning to evening. I was trying to run open loop at first, but my afr's were always different day to day depending on the weather, now it's steady every day.
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