d16 vitara piston slap????? pics inside - D-series.org

Go Back   D-series.org Motor Mayhem & Suspension Satisfaction Engine Building

D-Series.org is the premier Honda Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-04-2013, 05:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
n00b
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 26
Rep Power: 0 laostha is trying to make new friends
Default d16 vitara piston slap????? pics inside

Background info: I have built a d16 vitara setup aprox 1600 miles ago. The setup consists of 75.5 vitaras, p2p0 custom length rods, acl race bearings and rebuilt head. P2w clearances should be at .003" (what i specified to machinist). I have not made follow measurements to verify

Concern: I know that vitara setups are known to be noisy but what I hear is almost a rod knock on cold start until the engine warms up. Bearing clearances for rods and mains are at .002 -.0023. I run 10w40 oil and wonder if this noise was from excessive bearing clearances and not enough oil pressure but upon repairing some head bolt holes with timesert inserts, I found marks on #2 & 3 cylinder walls

My questions: Has anyone torn down to check the wear of piston slap on an engine?? Is this normal for vitaras to mark up cylinder walls when slapping??? Whats the longest running (mileage wise) vitara setup??? What oil weight are people are using with bearing clearances @ .002?



laostha is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-04-2013, 06:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
D-series lover
 
Cdizzle_996's Avatar
 
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Abbotsford, BC
Posts: 255
Rep Power: 4 Cdizzle_996  is accepted as part of the communityCdizzle_996  is accepted as part of the communityCdizzle_996  is accepted as part of the communityCdizzle_996  is accepted as part of the community
Default

Sound like this?

D16Z6 Vitara Turbo - YouTube

Motor is 5 years old
__________________
'09 - 12.245 @ 115.06 Stock GSR Turbo 11psi

'12 - 11.454 @ 122.66 Vitara Z6 Turbo 22psi

'13 - 11.890 @ 114.15 Vitara Y8 Turbo 17psi
Cdizzle_996 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2013, 06:10 PM   #3 (permalink)
n00b
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 26
Rep Power: 0 laostha is trying to make new friends
Default

in my opinion yours sounds more like a tap than a knock, but its is a video so its hard to depict the sound correctly

was that video taken during a cold start??
what type weight of oil are you using??

maybe i should take video to compare
laostha is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2013, 06:11 PM   #4 (permalink)
n00b
 
Red D Rocket's Avatar
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 35
Rep Power: 0 Red D Rocket is nobody
Default

I cant tell by the pictures. But what way are your arrows on the pistons faceing? On my second build i noticed less "slap" noise (motor sounded less like a diesel)when i had the arrows faceing the flywheel,
"0.003" p2w clearence.Im useing 10w-30 weight oil ..Also at around 16k miles i did notice some slight wear on the cylinder walls as you show in your pics.
__________________
Daily Driven!
D16Z6- Vitara/Eagle
Pte 3231
2011-320 hp-250Tq@20psi
2013-330 hp-262 Tq@20psi-but with a much happier powerband

Last edited by Red D Rocket; 01-04-2013 at 06:12 PM. Reason: oil type
Red D Rocket is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2013, 06:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
n00b
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 26
Rep Power: 0 laostha is trying to make new friends
Default

i have the arrows facing the flywheel on my build.

I feel that this maybe premature cylinder wall wear and may not last the 16k miles yours has but who knows, only time will tell

Im starting to question the machine work
laostha is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2013, 06:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
D-series lover
 
Cdizzle_996's Avatar
 
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Abbotsford, BC
Posts: 255
Rep Power: 4 Cdizzle_996  is accepted as part of the communityCdizzle_996  is accepted as part of the communityCdizzle_996  is accepted as part of the communityCdizzle_996  is accepted as part of the community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by laostha View Post
in my opinion yours sounds more like a tap than a knock, but its is a video so its hard to depict the sound correctly

was that video taken during a cold start??
what type weight of oil are you using??

maybe i should take video to compare

That was cold start. My car always "ticks" though.

I was nervous at first, but it took abuse all year, kinda just said screw it.
__________________
'09 - 12.245 @ 115.06 Stock GSR Turbo 11psi

'12 - 11.454 @ 122.66 Vitara Z6 Turbo 22psi

'13 - 11.890 @ 114.15 Vitara Y8 Turbo 17psi
Cdizzle_996 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2013, 06:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
D-series post SLUT
 
TheToaster's Avatar
 
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Washington
Posts: 2,401
Rep Power: 5 TheToaster is about to kiss the sky
TheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the sky
Default

It's probably doesn't help these pistons were not designed for this engine.

My P2W is .004 and I dont have anything like that. Let me get you some pics from my 500 mile rebuild.
TheToaster is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2013, 06:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
n00b
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 26
Rep Power: 0 laostha is trying to make new friends
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdizzle_996 View Post
That was cold start. My car always "ticks" though.

I was nervous at first, but it took abuse all year, kinda just said screw it.
thats where Im am at this point.

what are the bearing clearances on your setup?
laostha is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-04-2013, 06:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
D-series post SLUT
 
TheToaster's Avatar
 
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Washington
Posts: 2,401
Rep Power: 5 TheToaster is about to kiss the sky
TheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the sky
Default



Just realized You cant see the right side of the cylinder, but they looked the same at all angles so you get the idea.

I'd kinda like to be able to see my pistons more often. I need to find one of those skinny light camera things from the TV. Somethingscope

Where did he measure the P2W at? If that's normal with Vitaras, its probably from incorrect pin offset. Either way, that cylinder wear is intense for 1600 miles..

Last edited by TheToaster; 01-04-2013 at 06:39 PM.
TheToaster is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-07-2013, 01:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
D-series soldier
 
buzzbomb's Avatar
 
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hell Ayyyye!
Posts: 994
Rep Power: 10 buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....
buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....
Default

it looks like something other than rings are making contact with the cylinder walls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by laostha View Post
Im starting to question the machine work
that sounds like the problem.
std 75mm vitaras are a 'tad loose in the bore' but your shop should have 'bored to fit' the 75.5's.
did they have the pistons when they bored, to check?
__________________
I'm all about the d's (.Y.) yo!
97 dx coupe w/turbo z6 powah, life begins at 10psi
Quote:
Originally Posted by f00ker View Post
Also, get the fuck out of my thread, you 5th gen pussy.
J.M. Maclean, deployed 3-29-2013 to Afghanistan.
Returned 9-22-2013.
buzzbomb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-07-2013, 01:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
Ginger Beard
 
BeerDrinkin's Avatar
 
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South of Nashville
Posts: 3,164
Rep Power: 21 BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !
BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !BeerDrinkin is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !
Default

I wouldn't take any block to a shop to have my bore machined if they didn't ask for the pistons.
__________________
BeerDrinkin's rides click here
2005 Civic EX Sedan (ES2)


RIP Pat Primmer
You will be missed but not forgotten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoshot View Post
I actually jerk off to my rep points, neg rep makes me thumb my bung, what now brown cow? I finished twice.
BeerDrinkin is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-07-2013, 03:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
D-Series cadet
 
CripTofer's Avatar
 
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 371
Rep Power: 8 CripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagle
Default

I scoped mine after about a year, with them installed backwards, and the cross hatch looked as good as the day I built it. Mine were 75.5mm machined to Honda piston to wall clearance specs. 236 whp 212 wtq beaten daily for about four years, never had any engine issues, other than skunk2 crap intake falling apart.
CripTofer is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-07-2013, 03:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
D-series soldier
 
buzzbomb's Avatar
 
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hell Ayyyye!
Posts: 994
Rep Power: 10 buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....
buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....buzzbomb It's a JDM Star Bitches....
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerDrinkin View Post
I wouldn't take any block to a shop to have my bore machined if they didn't ask for the pistons.
of course not.
but some people don't know...
that's why i asked.
__________________
I'm all about the d's (.Y.) yo!
97 dx coupe w/turbo z6 powah, life begins at 10psi
Quote:
Originally Posted by f00ker View Post
Also, get the fuck out of my thread, you 5th gen pussy.
J.M. Maclean, deployed 3-29-2013 to Afghanistan.
Returned 9-22-2013.
buzzbomb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 04:46 AM   #14 (permalink)
D-Series cadet
 
CripTofer's Avatar
 
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 371
Rep Power: 8 CripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagleCripTofer is fly like an eagle
Default

Piston slap is not caused by the piston or type of piston, but the piston to wall clearance.
When you have an engine bored for a set of pistons, ideally they should measure each piston and bore each cylinder to a matching piston.
If the pistons are close to each other some shops will take the largest piston and bore all the cylinders to match it. This isn't the best practice but it does work.
If you they say they can bore a block with out the pistons to measure, run away, and find another shop.
Factory Honda specs on piston to wall clearance are fine for around 350 horsepower, maybe more I haven't personally tested more than that. However talk to the machine shop, fuel can change the tolerances, a engine running methanol can run tighter clearances than and engine running gasoline. The more horsepower you want to run the wider you need to make the piston to wall clearance. There are a few rules of thumb to this.
Talk to your machine shop, ask questions, let them know exactly what you are trying to do.
CripTofer is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 08:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
D-series post SLUT
 
CaliLegal's Avatar
 
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Nor - Cal
Posts: 2,329
Rep Power: 10 CaliLegal is hot as a volcanoCaliLegal is hot as a volcano
CaliLegal is hot as a volcanoCaliLegal is hot as a volcanoCaliLegal is hot as a volcanoCaliLegal is hot as a volcanoCaliLegal is hot as a volcanoCaliLegal is hot as a volcanoCaliLegal is hot as a volcanoCaliLegal is hot as a volcano
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by laostha View Post


Ok bud, well. My old motor, STOCK block and head d16z6, has the EXACT same markings on the cylinder walls. It saw 10.5psi all day every day for two years, until I built my Vitara motor. My vitara build has 75.5mm pistons, .002 P2W, with pistons towards the flywheel, and it sounds like a factory honda motor. I would do a compression check and leak down, and if your numbers are good rock it bro.
__________________
Old
D16z6
11.5psi 204whp/180ftlbs. old setup

New - 5/25/12
.002 P2W
75.5mm Z6
TD04H 15G @ 22.6psi ??WHP


Quote:
Originally Posted by 79hilux90crx View Post
?
Put a new motor in?
Dont race your car?
If you see smoke don't insert face?
If any of this confuses you die!
R.I.P - Pat Primmer
CaliLegal is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 11:48 AM   #16 (permalink)
wise in the ways of the D
 
TheAssassin's Avatar
 
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Morgantown, PA
Posts: 1,821
Rep Power: 7 TheAssassin is hot as a volcano
TheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcanoTheAssassin is hot as a volcano
Default

The block that I used for my rebuild had pistons with broken ring lands in it. The cylinder walls looked exactly like that. However, the previous owner knew he had some serious issues due to lost compression.
__________________
1997 Civic Ex
t3 60 turbo
293 whp 240 ftlbs
My Build Thread

237 avg. hp 208 avg. tq 4750-7200rpm
Calculating Average Horsepower
TheAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 02:28 PM   #17 (permalink)
D-series post SLUT
 
TheToaster's Avatar
 
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Washington
Posts: 2,401
Rep Power: 5 TheToaster is about to kiss the sky
TheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the skyTheToaster is about to kiss the sky
Default

Pin offset is real!
TheToaster is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 04:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
Deal with it...
 
Bizzar's Avatar
 
iTrader: (15)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Knoxville TN
Posts: 5,912
Rep Power: 34 Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !
Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Bizzar is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !
Default

Thats not from piston slap as some have said. Piston slap is from the skirts as the piston rocks back and forth in the cylinder and would show a more uniform wear pattern. Those marks are from the rings most likely. Could be ring end gap too large but if that's the case it usually has a deep score mark. Looks like debris to me possibly from install or even pieces of the piston floating around until it spits them out. Could be hard carbon deposits that broke loose really anything. Looking at the valve relief on the piston in the lower pic, is there a tiny melt/chip mark on it? Detonation perhaps chipping away at the relief? Over time any engine will show small score marks like that but with such low miles I would be a little concerned. Scratch them with your fingernail and if it catches, there's an issue.
__________________
16.5 psi full interior run
7.80 @ 88mph 1/8 mile.
297 Mustang Dyno whp @ 20psi
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9832/hatchburn.jpg
Bizzar is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 05:50 PM   #19 (permalink)
n00b
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 26
Rep Power: 0 laostha is trying to make new friends
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizzar View Post
Thats not from piston slap as some have said. Piston slap is from the skirts as the piston rocks back and forth in the cylinder and would show a more uniform wear pattern. Those marks are from the rings most likely. Could be ring end gap too large but if that's the case it usually has a deep score mark. Looks like debris to me possibly from install or even pieces of the piston floating around until it spits them out. Could be hard carbon deposits that broke loose really anything. Looking at the valve relief on the piston in the lower pic, is there a tiny melt/chip mark on it? Detonation perhaps chipping away at the relief? Over time any engine will show small score marks like that but with such low miles I would be a little concerned. Scratch them with your fingernail and if it catches, there's an issue.
I agree with you on this after looking at the pics again. My ring gaps are at .18 top .20 second and .25 oil rings. Unfortunately I have already assembled the motor so i cant scratch at the score marks. However, i did do a compression test the other day and they were all at 175-180 psi.
laostha is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-10-2013, 05:52 PM   #20 (permalink)
n00b
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 26
Rep Power: 0 laostha is trying to make new friends
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzbomb View Post
it looks like something other than rings are making contact with the cylinder walls.

that sounds like the problem.
std 75mm vitaras are a 'tad loose in the bore' but your shop should have 'bored to fit' the 75.5's.
did they have the pistons when they bored, to check?

yeah he had the pistons.
laostha is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the D-series.org forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Image Verification


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (0 members and 4 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


iconAll times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:42 PM. | Welcome to Forum, please register to access all of our features.