ZC 200 whp

[EG6civic]

i just got my EG5 civic with DOHC ZC motor and tranns i want help on how to get 200 whp on a n/a i was thinking turbo but i really dont want to do that i just want a high rev motor that can almost beat K20's and C5's i have I/H/E i think my whp is 120 -130 right now i can beat integra rs gs and Ls i even got a win over a 2000 civic si just want the help

[MotoXracerfss]

It will be EXTREMELY less expensive to turbo then build a N/A with 200whp

[Green 91]

BOOST. can have 200whp quick.
ZCs love boost

as once said
DOHC ZC+boost=the sexor

[ryan89crx]

200hp n/a? hopes and dreams...

[Green 91]

ITBS can do it, with some cams lol.

[ryan89crx]

ITBS can do it, with some cams lol.maybe at the flywheel....

[DirtyDC4]

Was the Mugen/Motul Civic DOHC ZC powered? It made north of 220chp NA.

[leshok]

i just got my EG5 civic with DOHC ZC motor and tranns i want help on how to get 200 whp on a n/a i was thinking turbo but i really dont want to do that i just want a high rev motor that can almost beat K20's and C5's i have I/H/E i think my whp is 120 -130 right now i can beat integra rs gs and Ls i even got a win over a 2000 civic si just want the help
The cars you beat were high 15 sec cars.
A 200whp is going to be really hard to drive on the street. It wont last long. It going to take some money, and it most likely wont have 1.6L of displacement.
Do you want a motor that can beat k20 type s and civics or just almost beat them?
200whp is definitely not needed to do that. Cosidering the light weight chassies you have look at power to weight ratios and determine what you need.

[Green 91]

how is 200hp hard to drive on the street?

[diz305chico]

Seems like the making of a funny thread.

[T-MacK]

A 200whp is going to be really hard to drive on the street.

Yeah maybe if you wake up every morning and smoke crack? :bong:

[SOHC_STUDENT]

maybe at the flywheel....

only if you're an automotive engineer doing a thesis project on the dseries motor and fabricate your own pimp ass header, bump compression up to 12:1, run 98 octane, 42mm ITBs and then tune your shit perfectly...

ie. not you brother

[SOHC_STUDENT]

how is 200hp hard to drive on the street?

a 200WHP N/A D series is hard to drive on the street

BECAUSE IT DOESNT EXIST

just like this unicorn

http://mrichard.org/images/unicorn.jpg

[diz305chico]

Unicorns make me want to vomit..

[ryan89crx]

to get a d series motor into the 200s, i would assume that it would NOT be very streetable. thats the higher spectrum of where a d motor has been, and would take some extremely wild cams with ITBs, and very high compression.

[93reddelsol]

The cars you beat were high 15 sec cars.
A 200whp is going to be really hard to drive on the street. It wont last long. It going to take some money, and it most likely wont have 1.6L of displacement.
Do you want a motor that can beat k20 type s and civics or just almost beat them?
200whp is definitely not needed to do that. Cosidering the light weight chassies you have look at power to weight ratios and determine what you need.
I laughed Please keep posting to make my day better:tool:

[leshok]

Is ryan the only person that can think before he talks/types?
I still love you guys. See last picture.
215whp 170wtq

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts005.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts006.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts007.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts008.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts009.jpg
Copyright mike kojima "honda engine performance"


Does any one care to comment? Is Mike Kojima lying!!!?!?! He must be because sohc_student and Tmackcxminime said so. You guys should have written the book not some lame automotive engineer right?

[Green 91]

yes.
were talking about DOHC ZC not SOHC

[leshok]

yes.
were talking about DOHC ZC not SOHC
a 200WHP N/A D series is hard to drive on the street

BECAUSE IT DOESNT EXIST
I was replying to his post. DOHC ZC, SOHC are D series.
He claims that N/A 200whp D series doesnt exist.

[crooked muffla]

Is ryan the only person that can think before he talks/types?
I still love you guys. See last picture.
215whp 170wtq

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts005.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts006.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts007.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts008.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y296/dwihxc/parts009.jpg
Copyright mike kojima "honda engine performance"


Does any one care to comment? Is Mike Kojima lying!!!?!?! He must be because sohc_student and Tmackcxminime said so. You guys should have written the book not some lame automotive engineer right?

over 2000cc haha

[transzex]

Bisi will dispute those R&D facts, esp. with the newer owners since Rich sold the company.

But 200 whp D15 is possible, I know the combo.

165-170 whp D15 is easy, the last 30 whp requires knowledge and magic.

[leshok]

Bisi will dispute those R&D facts, esp. with the newer owners since Rich sold the company.

But 200 whp D15 is possible, I know the combo.

165-170 whp D15 is easy, the last 30 whp requires knowledge and magic.

Bone are you keeping the 200whp d15 a secret???

[transzex]

not really, the info was posted on the the old ezboards before Sean bought the rights.

One must understand thy master thoughts, and his twisted tales.

[rushi]

What's the point why D15 has "so much potential"? Can it just be shorter stroke, better r/s or lighter crank compared to D16, or what is it?

[88efcivic]

boost it if your gonna shovel out alot of money for n/a parts u cud have boosted it 2x over...www.zcspeed.com they have some stuff but i havent sen to to much on after market support i deff wanna keep updated to see how its going

[SOHC_STUDENT]

Is ryan the only person that can think before he talks/types?
I still love you guys. See last picture.
215whp 170wtq


Does any one care to comment? Is Mike Kojima lying!!!?!?! He must be because sohc_student and Tmackcxminime said so. You guys should have written the book not some lame automotive engineer right?

bah thats hardly a d16 anymore - bored out to 2000cc on methanol - proly good for 1 pass and wheres the dyno slip?

even they say the street version is 170WHP

[leshok]

bah thats hardly a d16 anymore - bored out to 2000cc on methanol - proly good for 1 pass and wheres the dyno slip?

even they say the street version is 170WHP
In my first post I said it wouldnt be 1.6L of displacement. Whether it be 1600cc's or 2000+cc's it is still a d series engine that made 200+ whp
I also said it wouldnt last long.
OP never said anything about it being a street engine. He asked if 200whp is possible and with a d series it is.
170whp sounds about right for a street engine. Rushi made 173whp. Right on.

[SOHCinWA]

The D15 motor Bisi had in the CRX Had huge Pistons in it. Although not as large as I have seen because he thuoght that they would work... Now there is someone at a company that I cant name *cough* Eagle *cough* that had 81mm pistons stuffed in a D16. Aslo in the article about R&D I promise you that Bisi's compression was higher than 15 to 1. According to Bisi, he says that Compression is the key to a D.

And it DOES NOT take a ton of money to make 200 with a D. It takes the right combination.

[hatchnthoughts]

all comes down to work smart not hard.

[dkid15]

Unicorns make me want to vomit..

I actually find them quite arousing;)

[burnin_ruberv8]

If you want to make that kind of power... you'll have to stroke the hell out of it... this seems to be the only way to gain power N/A, becuase a D-series is not meant to be a high revving motor... (even if you sort out the low R/S ratio, and high stroke issue)... you'd still have a small bore... meaning it will hurt flow at high RPM's... so the most sensible thing to do is to concentrate on making low end torque >>> STROKING + A LITTLE BORING!!

but be braced for the custom parts your going to order...

[SOHCinWA]

If you want to make that kind of power... you'll have to stroke the hell out of it... this seems to be the only way to gain power N/A, becuase a D-series is not meant to be a high revving motor... (even if you sort out the low R/S ratio, and high stroke issue)... you'd still have a small bore... meaning it will hurt flow at high RPM's... so the most sensible thing to do is to concentrate on making low end torque >>> STROKING + A LITTLE BORING!!

but be braced for the custom parts your going to order...

Hold on race horse... The D motors already have a horrible rod to stroke ratio. If you stroke it, all you are going to do is get more torque. These motors want to rev. Re-sleeve it and put 76-78mm pistons in it and add lots of compression. This is how you will get more , way more usable hp. If you put an 81mm piston in the D, You will have a hi revving motor that makes solid hp and is alot closer to a 1.8L. You want to try and get the R/S ratio as close to "Square" as possible.... And the D loves compression. So if you can afford the fuel, then you wont have an issue.

[shifty35]

Hold on race horse... The D motors already have a horrible rod to stroke ratio. If you stroke it, all you are going to do is get more torque. These motors want to rev. Re-sleeve it and put 76-78mm pistons in it and add lots of compression. This is how you will get more , way more usable hp. If you put an 81mm piston in the D, You will have a hi revving motor that makes solid hp and is alot closer to a 1.8L. You want to try and get the R/S ratio as close to "Square" as possible.... And the D loves compression. So if you can afford the fuel, then you wont have an issue.

*cough* custom deck plate *cough*

:)

[SOHCinWA]

Like I have been saying all along.. Its all COMBINATION...... A deck plate is another thing you have to shell money out for. When my other motor is complete and and I ship it to California to Bisi's Dyno (in July hopefully) you will see what I am talking about.
Don

[BigTuna]

My new D setup has crazy compression, thanks to a set of custom Bisimoto pistons :)

Also think bore not stoke, shorten the stroke inorder to let the motor safely operate in the RPM range need by the camshaft. Big cam, short stroke hold on...

[weebeastie]

Talk to any engine builder or serious racer for that matter and you will find that all naturally aspirated internal combustion engines reach a point that no matter how much cam or head you throw at it the only way you will see an increase in power is proper internal geometry and machine work. Rod ratio, bore size compared to stroke, bearing size, ring size, head flow, valve job and on and on and on. Machine work is far more critical than most think. A good, competition 3 angle valve job can mean a minimum of 10-15 chp on almost any engine. Again, I said competition not standard valve job(includes back cut and swirl polish). Obviously I'm revealing the fact that I am a machinist but that doesn't negate the need for proper machine work. 200 HP for a ZC is possible, but you would need a different crank(shorter stroke), aftermarket sleeves 81mm bore(minimum), about 16:1 compression, different cams to help bleed compression, full race port work on the heads and have them sent to a flow bench for testing, ITB's are the minimum, carbs would be better so you don't have to rely on an ECU for your tuning, also you'll need an aftermarket ignition system (gutted stock dizzy with a MSD digital 6 is good). This would be expensive, but with the correct tuning and cams you could see 200 hp.

[rushi]

weebeastie are you talking about crank- or wheelpower? If we assume powertrain losses of 14%, my engine makes around 197hp at crank and there's nothing special, even crappy OEM pistons/rods etc.

But I agree what you said about point where engine geometry etc becomes very important. Why you think carbs would be even better than ITBs? "don't have to rely on ECU tuning", that's really weird statement and gives image that engine builder/tuner doesn't understand or know hoh engine management works. And why cam should bleed out compression (or anything else), when we're trying to maximize BMEP?

[weebeastie]

Bleed compression so that the valvetrain/rings will live. I'm a firm believer in carbs. I'm not knocking ITB's, but you still have to wrestle with tuning an ECU to control the air/fuel ratio. If your ECU has a brain fart and your engine runs lean with 16:1 compression you might have "some" detonation issues. In this instance Carburation would be safer. Again, I'm not knocking ITB's, as I said before, I'm trying to keep the motor alive for more than just a month. 200 whp and a long life.

[shifty35]

Bleed compression so that the valvetrain/rings will live. I'm a firm believer in carbs. I'm not knocking ITB's, but you still have to wrestle with tuning an ECU to control the air/fuel ratio. If your ECU has a brain fart and your engine runs lean with 16:1 compression you might have "some" detonation issues. In this instance Carburation would be safer. Again, I'm not knocking ITB's, as I said before, I'm trying to keep the motor alive for more than just a month. 200 whp and a long life.

Carbs are by far the simplest way to tune a vehicle that has only to run at WOT. You don't find them on new vehicles simply because they can't produce the idle and part throttle power, ride quality, and low emissions demanded by state and federal regulations.

That being said, sounds like someone doesn't trust computers. :p

Part of my graduate work is on verification of real-time systems... it is possible to prove that said ECUs will never "brain-fart" if the software is designed correctly.

There is just as much possibility for catastrophic failure from a carb setup as well - less likely if properly maintained, but still possible.

[SOHCinWA]

bah thats hardly a d16 anymore - bored out to 2000cc on methanol - proly good for 1 pass and wheres the dyno slip?

even they say the street version is 170WHP



WOAH...... Slow down there... Bisi has always ran on race gas... Never has he raced with any other fuel....

[BigTuna]

ITB vs Carbs is a everchanging arguement yes maybe 5 yrs ago Carbs were far better that ITBS but as technology had grown in leaps and bounds in the last half decade it has brought injector atomization and stand alone ecu's to a whole nother level. I am not saying that fuel injection will ever surpass carbs in the NA motor application but with technology the gap is becoming smaller and smaller.

[SOHCinWA]

You are right about the gap for sure. But you must remember that the carb technology is not just sitting around either.

[transzex]

Talk to any engine builder or serious racer for that matter.....

sounds like a movie quote!!!!!!!!

:slap::thehump:

[rushi]

Bleed compression so that the valvetrain/rings will live.

Isn't that only some unnecessary work and pumping losses, resulting from using too high CR or wrong/bad fuel?

I'm a firm believer in carbs. I'm not knocking ITB's, but you still have to wrestle with tuning an ECU to control the air/fuel ratio.

LOL and you don't have with carbs? I've spent my childhood/teenager years messing with various carbs in various engines (Webers/Dellortos etc). After I had my first touch with standalone engine management systems, I won't touch carbs anymore unless I'm forced to. It's just so much easier, faster and straightforward to sit in car, watch the logs and change fuel/timing tables with laptop than jump around messing with jets/needles/venturis/mixing tubes etc etc.. Not to mention far superior results from part throttle operation, throttle response and fuel economy with ITBs.

If your ECU has a brain fart and your engine runs lean with 16:1 compression you might have "some" detonation issues. In this instance Carburation would be safer.

Same thing can happen if something loosens in carb, debris gets into jet etc.. IMO both systems can be built as reliable.

Again, I'm not knocking ITB's, as I said before, I'm trying to keep the motor alive for more than just a month. 200 whp and a long life.

And I'm not trying to start carbs vs ITB fight here. If engine blows up, it's much more engine builder's or tuner's fault, not because engine was equipped with fuel injection or carbs.

[weebeastie]

ITB's are just fine, but not everyone can afford them, or most importantly understand how to tune them properly.(Same with carbs but more easily understood) I really believe that is my main concern with any ECU equipped Honda. They're not so easily fine tuned that your average joe can do it, so they must rely on a tuner. What fun is that? My car goes really fast and I have no clue how to tune it? Rushi, I'm sure you tune your car, but as for your average Honda guy, they are clueless and thats where the rice rocket brigade comes in with their mufflers and CAI's that make 25 whp on an otherwise stock vehicle. Carb's can be tuned for part throttle as well. My carb setup is different than the sidedrafts anyway, so maybe thats why I'm a little more biased against injection. Holley 2V carbs are a little easier to work on than Mikuni's, Keihins, or Dellorto's. Just two opinions.


Educated discussions usually don't change minds, but they do educate everyone around them about both sides of the discussion.