Engine Swap OR New Car?

[skate1968]

Should i be saving for an engine swap? Or should I be saving for a new car? Would a swap be cost efficient for prolonging the life of my daily driver? Or would it be smarter for me to look for another car with an engine already in it? I have very little mechanical skill and I'm NOT interested in racing. But eventually I'd like to have a little more than 92 horsepower. So i'm wondering if i should get a D16 and keep the 5 speed trans that i just got.

If i decide on a future swap i can start immediately shopping around for an new engine, ECU, bigger exhaust, (any wiring kit that's needed) do some cosmetic work on my exterior, floor carpets, etc. Otherwise i won't waste my time.

Right now i have a 91 civic DX with a stock D15-- no rust, good stock transmission. It's burns oil from having worn rings -- blowby (already played with 'Restore' and all that stuff). So I top it off and I get where I'm going as I've done for years. Modifying my tired old engine would, of course, be a waste.

I know a wonderful trustworthy mechanic who swapped in a transmission for me for real cheap. But I was disappointed that he advised me to get a new car instead of a swap. (Otherwise I'd have no problem paying him to do the work.)

Option 1

A reputable JDM shop gave me the following estimated prices for swaps, all parts and labor included.

Another stock D15 $1300

New 1.6 dual point 1800 dollars
- engine more expensive
- needs new ECU

New 1.6 with multipoint 2000 dollars
Multipoint is more wiring work
- engine more expensive
- needs new ECU

(my sincere apologies to the owners for any inaccuracies in the above)
http://jdmexchange.com/

Advantage: These guys obviously know what they're doing and I trust that my car wouldn't have any subsequent problems from the swap -- i would trust them to be capable of standing behind their work.
Disadvantage: Maybe a little pricey. (but maybe very well worth the money. I don't know.)

I see that there is a ton of technical information available for those wanting their EFs to go quicker.



Option 2 Guy at the Broad Street car wash

"Do it yourself! You don't even need to rent a crane. Just throw a rope over a tree limb. Or get a couple buddies to help you lift it up and drop it in-- that's a light engine."

I admire this guy's ambition. But I have absolutely no confidence in his technical ability. And I'm merely posting this for some comedic value.


Option 3
Ask the young mechanic to do it on the weekend. I know a young-- 24ish-- guy who's also got an EF and he seems know his stuff. He's currently going to tech school for auto repair.

If this guy can't use his friend's shop. I can rent a crane and we can do it in my Aunt's garage. I would gladly be his assistant and hand him tools as needed, etc. I'd be his gopher since i got no tech skill.

Advantage: Cheaper
Disadvantage: What if there's a problem? Will he fix it? Can he fix it? When will he get to it? Where will he fix it?


Variation 3 B
Get the reputable shop to put in a healthy jdm d15 for $1300. Then later, when convenient, hunt for deals. Meaning find some cheap way of getting a multipoint swap, cold air intake and a 2/2.25/2.5 exhaust.


Option 4
Just save money for a new car

Thanks to anyone who's still reading this longwinded post.

[SpoolinSol]

you can get a d16z6 for less than $2k... hell; you could almost do a b16 or h22 swap for $2k... hondas with no rust (especially EF's) are hard to come by; so i would personally just keep the chassis you have now.

[skate1968]

That's exactly what i thought of my car. EFs with no rust are worth hanging on to. The previous owner's went out of thier way to put an expensive undercoating on it.

I believe that a D16Z would best have an SI transmission. And i was wanting to keep the stock trans that was just put in.

[SpeedRicer]

you can get a d16z6 for less than $2k... hell; you could almost do a b16 or h22 swap for $2k... hondas with no rust (especially EF's) are hard to come by; so i would personally just keep the chassis you have now.

:werd:

i believe u can just get the motor and keep the trans u got in there now. the DX tranny has longer ratios than the SI... but it'll still work, especially since u said ur not into racing it'll cruise real nice...

[burnoutboy]

I saw someone on here say they got a D16Z6 for $85.00 once! Honestly I'm not a huge fan of JDM exchange. They've mislead me in the past and are kinda sketchy on returns. Might have been out of the norm for them, I've only dealt with them once.:confused:

[Single Cam D]

Well i got a full complete d16z6 motor for 695,but its expensive in Washington,but do a d motor there more fun to work with instead of a b-series.

[myHonda1]

i got a z6 for free. just look around. i'm sure you'll find that deal!

[ryan89crx]

i would look for a lower mileage d16a6, or get a JDM sohc ZC non vtec.

dpfi-mpfi wiring is pretty simple and straightforward, then just have the young guy down the street help you swap the motor in. plug in the correct ecu, and have fun.

motor: $400+shipping http://www.hmotorsonline.com/shop/sc2000search.cgi?what=page&item=30020
- Motor
- Intake Manifold
- Exhaust Manifold
- Injectors
- Fuel Rail
- Throttle body
- Alternator
- Distributor

then all you need is the wiring change and you are kosher. if it were me that you were coming to, i would only charge you a couple hundred bucks to re-wire and do the install. the kid down the street shouldnt be much more. just make sure he has the experience to do it

[myHonda1]

yea dude, if your cars in good shape why get rid of it?

i say just do the swap. D's are a dime a dozen anyway!

[skate1968]

i believe u can just get the motor and keep the trans u got in there now. the DX tranny has longer ratios than the SI... but it'll still work, especially since u said ur not into racing it'll cruise real nice...

Thanks Speed, I didn't know that. Sounds like a ZC might be a real good option for me.

I saw someone on here say they got a D16Z6 for $85.00 once!

I might be more comfortable paying a little more for an engine. I wouldn't want to pay someone to install it only to find out that it's garbage.


Honestly I'm not a huge fan of JDM exchange. They've mislead me in the past and are kinda sketchy on returns. Might have been out of the norm for them, I've only dealt with them once.:confused:

I was not extremely impressed with them either. I once inquired about a swap from Dual point to multipoint. They said it'd be too expensive and not worth it. (whereas others have told me that it's fairly simple for a mechanic and yields a decent gain)


i would look for a lower mileage d16a6, or get a JDM sohc ZC non vtec.

That's what i'm thinking. I'd rather pay an extra hunded or two for an engine which i knew was quality.

I got the transmission from JDM engines of patterson NJ outside Manhatten. I might buy an engine from there and pick it up myself-- no shipping.

dpfi-mpfi wiring is pretty simple... then all you need is the wiring change and you are kosher. if it were me that you were coming to, i would only charge you a couple hundred bucks to re-wire and do the install....

I wish we lived closer to each other. I've gotten estimates of aproximately 1,000 and up for the labor. Maybe i just need to start looking more.

Would swapping a non vtec D in my civic be easier than swaps in general. Could it be that some of the mechanics i've talked to don't realize that this swap can be relatively easy? Or maybe they just don't feel like doing it.

yea dude, if your cars in good shape why get rid of it?
i say just do the swap. D's are a dime a dozen anyway!

MyHonda,
thanks for responding.
My car is not in perfect shape. It's just that the cosmetic crap is something i can work on myself or live with.
I expected that some on this forum would think that i'm nuts for even considering to let it go (and perhaps letting it go would be stupid-- what do i know?). But someone on another forum thought that swapping an engine in a 91 civic was absolutely not worth the trouble (that's what they said don't kill me for being messenger).

I'm not interested in racing. But i am interested to know what racers think of this plan. I think guys who put 15 year old engines in car for racing would know how durable these engines are. Are these engines generally sturdy and trouble free for a few years if you treat them well? I would imagine if 15 year old engines are still sturdy enough for drag racing then they're probably sturdy enough to be my daily driver for a few years.

thanks everyone,
I gotta get back to work.

[ryan89crx]

Would swapping a non vtec D in my civic be easier than swaps in general. Could it be that some of the mechanics i've talked to don't realize that this swap can be relatively easy? Or maybe they just don't feel like doing it.the swap itself is an absolute cakewalk. the hard part, and i dont know if id even consider it hard, is the mpfi wiring. its probably just more time consuming than anything.

[skate1968]

Ryan,
Do they make a kit for wiring up the multipoint? If i can't get an experienced person to do the labor for a reasonable price could a kit be an alternative?

[ryan89crx]

Ryan,
Do they make a kit for wiring up the multipoint? If i can't get an experienced person to do the labor for a reasonable price could a kit be an alternative?yes they do, but its not cheap...

http://rywire.com/store/8891-crxcivic-dxstd-d16a6-dpfi-mpfi-p-63.html?osCsid=a700190ef2c8effac9f87386091bb900

[SpeedRicer]

the swap itself is an absolute cakewalk. the hard part, and i dont know if id even consider it hard, is the mpfi wiring. its probably just more time consuming than anything.

depinning plugs is a pain in the ass... i started in july and i'm still not done lmao....

[DelSol93]

:werd:

i believe u can just get the motor and keep the trans u got in there now. the DX tranny has longer ratios than the SI... but it'll still work, especially since u said ur not into racing it'll cruise real nice...

actualy the only difference in the Dx to Si transmitions is the final drive

[skate1968]

yes they do, but its not cheap...

http://rywire.com/store/8891-crxcivic-dxstd-d16a6-dpfi-mpfi-p-63.html?osCsid=a700190ef2c8effac9f87386091bb900

Thanks Ryan,
That's still cheaper than the shop that's asking me for $2,000.

[ryan89crx]

Thanks Rayan,
That's still cheaper than the shop that's asking me for $2,000.good luck with everything :TU:

[KyleVA]

I say swap. Might as well.

[Haysoos]

Unless you are planning to buy a newer car (less than 5 years old) go with a non-vtec swap. Non-vtec means less wiring, easier swap. Ryans suggestions were great

[pLaYbOi]

From some of my experiences...considering that you are NOT interested in racing, you wont be satisfied with the power difference between the z6 and stock nonvtec motor. The difference between the two motors is in the higher rpms from what i can recall, and therefore does you no good since you wont be in that powerband much. Intake and an exhaust system MIGHT yield you 7whp if you're lucky but with the larger diameter piping, you are sacrificing lower rpm torque for higher rpm horse power. Which is another thing you will barely see.

The biggest things you could do to see a significant difference would be either to rebuild the stock motor since all it has are bad rings, and swap the tranny with a d16z6 tranny. Or i'd reccomend with purchasing a LS b18 or CRV B20 motor. Both of which offer low rpm torque. Downside to those of corse would probably be the cost to get one swapped in, not only in labor but in parts as well.

I dont know how much you desire your EF but it sounds like you'd live fine without it. So i would say*puttin on my flame suit* sell it, and get something else a little more newer and powerful.

[ryan89crx]

and swap the tranny with a d16z6 trannyz6 trans in a cable chassis? i dont think so...

that conversion requires a bunch of fabrication since there is no conversion kit, and he already stated that he isnt mechanically inclined

[skate1968]

Thanks very much to all of you who gave your ideas, especially Ryan.

I've got some minor cosmetic work that i need to do/get done on the car. And before i did that i wanted to get a better idea on the likelyhood of me keeping this car. It sounds like i'll probably get a new engine if i need to. And maybe even before i need to. :)

[skate1968]

you wont be satisfied with the power difference between the z6 and stock nonvtec motor.

You don't think i'll be happy going from 92 horsepower to 125?

The difference between the two motors is in the higher rpms from what i can recall, and therefore does you no good since you wont be in that powerband much.

So I'll feel the power when i'm in higher rpms. Sounds OK. I can drive in high rpms.

I dont know how much you desire your EF but it sounds like you'd live fine without it. So i would say*puttin on my flame suit* sell it, and get something else a little more newer and powerful.

I actually really like my car. It's kind of a fun little car to drive.

The used jdm transmission swap that i did last year worked so well and was so cheap that it got me thinking about swapping the entire engine.

[pLaYbOi]

z6 trans in a cable chassis? i dont think so...

that conversion requires a bunch of fabrication since there is no conversion kit, and he already stated that he isnt mechanically inclined

OoOoO:hammer: thanks for catching that. hMmM so what would be the next best tranny thats cable and has low gears?

[pLaYbOi]

You don't think i'll be happy going from 92 horsepower to 125?


well, maybe i'm comparing with the 125hp i have in my ~2400lbs del sol versus your ~2200lbs hatch. My del sol feels almost as sluggish as my automatic ef hatch....ALMOST. Your car will of course have more pep but i doubt it would be enough for myself i should say. I've driven an eg hatch with a d16z6 swap and it was OK at best to me. eh...just my other 2 cents i suppose.

[skate1968]

well, maybe i'm comparing with the 125hp i have in my ~2400lbs del sol versus your ~2200lbs hatch. My del sol feels almost as sluggish as my automatic ef hatch....ALMOST. Your car will of course have more pep but i doubt it would be enough for myself i should say. I've driven an eg hatch with a d16z6 swap and it was OK at best to me. eh...just my other 2 cents i suppose.

I'm honestly grateful that you and others will give feedback before i drop $1200 on 16 year old engine (labor included). Outside of honda forums it's a pretty unusual investment. I remember someone else once telling me that he wasn't impressed with a D16.

I just looked at the specs. My civic sedan wieghs 2,127 lbs-- approx 2,200 like you said. I do remember one time driving some guys out to lunch. An extra couple hundred pounds was very noticeable.

I've recently fixed many things on my car -- sludge, loose mounts, horrible trans, valve train noise galore, etc. Before the fixes I drove the car slow-- otherwise it sounded like it would bottom out.

So a D16 with multipoint certainly wont excite everyone. But it will probably seem like a very big deal to me. Like you said, it's all a matter of one's perspective.

I posted this question on another honda forum (i'm kind of a forum whore) and got similar responses.

thanks again

[skate1968]

yes they do, but its not cheap...

http://rywire.com/store/8891-crxcivic-dxstd-d16a6-dpfi-mpfi-p-63.html?osCsid=a700190ef2c8effac9f87386091bb900


Ryan and everyone,
On another forum they recomended that I purchase a MPFI wiring kit from this fellow.

http://hybrid-creations.com/crxproducts.htm

He goes by 'BamBam'-- apparently he's got a good reputation And he's also half the price. (

thanks again for all the help:TU: