Understeer in the wet

[Mark80]

Hi guys, I have an EG civic in the UK. I have it lowered about 40mm on lowered springs on standard shocks, and also have 15" alloy wheels. The car is ok when its dry but I'm getting loads of understeer in the wet. I was wondering if it is the tyres or the suspension set up? They are yokohama tyres but i think they are crap. Also would i benifit greatly from changing my standard shocks to aftermarket ones designed for lowered springs?
Thanks loads

[BLACK-KNIGHT]

40mm lower is equal to 1 1/2 inch drop as 25.4mm is one inch, If you car is lowered do you have camber plates or something similar to correct the camber from the car being lowered. If you have 15's with crapy tires then upgrade. Get some tires that are good in the wet and dry, their should be a thread on this on this site on tires. I think you should at least get 16' maybe a 17 if you can afford it. If you got the money get some lighter wheels to and 16/17 size rims would be good if you want to put a big brake kit on it. Make sure to widen them some as this to will help with braking, accel, cornering. but not to big so they rub the fenders.

If your on a buget and cant afford new rims just tires then get some new rubber, also check into mini swap the wheels off another 4 lug car with the same bolt pattern, like a integy etc rims that are a lil wider.

I could get into how unsprung weight and tire weight affect the handling and cornering and having to big a wheel or to small can mess with the speed meter but some other time.

[K2e2vin]

Not much you can do about; one of the many drawbacks of FWD. Your front wheels are doing all of the braking, steering, and acceleration. Water on the asphalt will act as a "lubricant" so to say, thus making it harder for the front tires to grip.

[Mark80]

thanks guys,
No I dont have any camber plates to adjust the set up, would these help? Im thinking the tyres are the root of the problem as they are the contact with the tarmac. When I had my steel wheels still on and normal suspension my car was fine in the wet which makes me wonder what part of my set up is failing. I want to stick with 15s as i thought they eat up less power to turn than 17's etc. and heard that chunkier tyres are worse in the snow as thinner tyres cut through the snow better. Can you get fake tyres as i reckon mine might be?
The steering also just feels generally weird too. When i drive along the car will feel like it suddenly wants to go one way then is ok then can feel like it wants to go the other way, like its following a groove in the road when there is none. reaaly appreciate the helpful advice.

[K2e2vin]

You're hitting puddles and hydroplaning. Get some rain tires. Fatter treads=nowhere for water to escape.

[Mark80]

yeah but even when the roads just damp i loose grip. Im thinking it is the tyres tho as i dont see how the suspension would make me understeer. I might try putting two old steel tyres on the front and see if that rectifies things. cheers

[civiccoup 95]

What tyres are you using? fake tyres WTF? try some all weather tyres like Avon-ZZ3`s i have had no problems with these and it took alot of different manufacturers to find the right one

[devere]

yeah but even when the roads just damp i loose grip. Im thinking it is the tyres tho as i dont see how the suspension would make me understeer. I might try putting two old steel tyres on the front and see if that rectifies things. cheers

Try not going as fast as possible round corners.......?

Find a slightly slower, safer, speed where you dont understeer......

[" Low "]

my guess is the combo, of tires/tyres, suspension, and driver

[vietnameeh]

my guess is driver error

[DirtyDC4]

as i dont see how the suspension would make me understeer.

Uhhhh, you sure about that?

[turboedpickup]

i like it when the roads are damp... because it gives this fake impression that my car has a lot of power... because the roads still look normal enough (not glistening)... and i'm able to lose traction if i floor it in first...etc. :) fun times.

[Mark80]

my guess is driver error

interesting. why do you think its driver error? I drive the same as i did before the car was lowered and there is a vast difference in handling. When driving behind cars at a moderate speed the cars in front take the corner as they should where as i have to slow down considerably so I don't understeer.

Uhhhh, you sure about that?

No im not sure thats why im asking. I just think its the tyres but im uncertain. I dont know how the suspension set up in a car effects under and over steer and how to correct this.

Thanks for your help guys.

[EJ1 SCRAPPIN]

camber kit will help!

[civiccoup 95]

even with a camber kit you will still get understeer if your tyres are crap, sort the tyres out! a little throttle control can go along way as well!

[BLACK-KNIGHT]

thanks guys,
No I dont have any camber plates to adjust the set up, would these help? Im thinking the tyres are the root of the problem as they are the contact with the tarmac. When I had my steel wheels still on and normal suspension my car was fine in the wet which makes me wonder what part of my set up is failing. I want to stick with 15s as i thought they eat up less power to turn than 17's etc. and heard that chunkier tyres are worse in the snow as thinner tyres cut through the snow better. Can you get fake tyres as i reckon mine might be?
The steering also just feels generally weird too. When i drive along the car will feel like it suddenly wants to go one way then is ok then can feel like it wants to go the other way, like its following a groove in the road when there is none. reaaly appreciate the helpful advice.

The phatter the tire the enhanced the draining effect on the tire, hence why drag cars run phat slicks, rally cars run phat tires, etc, the skiny tire only help to decrease the contact patch between the car and road as the only things are the tires touching the road. While the 15 are light they are steelies which are a cheap made rim not light and was made for mass production, not lightweight. Take a regular 16 inch rim steelie witha 205 tire without tire weight is 18ish pounds depending who makes it while the 3rd gen rx-7 93-97? rim weight is only 13 lbs and can put a 225 tire on it. For every pound off a wheel help reduce rotational mass, and helps the suspension stroke. dont believe me look it up. but if your that worried about a weight then remove the brakes as that is like 50 lbs of crap, just leave the e-brake so you can drift better than the mustang in the fast in the furious, seriously you can get a 16-17 inch rim lighter and wider than stock and with that said wider and bigger for the same weight as stock, add some bigger brakes and if you get to aggeressive in the corner you can now stop better.
If the car is pulling side to side it is your car not having lsd and the motor is favoring the wheel with less resistance.

[K2e2vin]

"phat"=pretty hot and temping. Didn't know anyone felt that way about tires. :p :)

yea, but no, wide tires do not enhance the draining effect in wet weather; larger grooves do. Drag cars run wide tires for more traction on dry pavement. If you look at F1 cars, they run full slicks when dry, and grooved wet tires when wet.

Yes, skinnier tires will help you cut through the snow and get to solid ground. Wide tires will sit on top of it. In snow, you want your car to have some weight. This will help it cut through the snow.(I'm pretty sure you've seen some rally cars; they have some pretty skinny tires when racing in snow).

Lighter rims do not increase suspension stroke; shorter shocks do(shock absorber and spring aren't effected by wheel weight).

Bigger brakes(rotor-wise) are only for people with cooling problems or race cars who need the most brakes they can get. Also, bigger rotors would be counter-productive if you're set on using light wheels(which are a lot of $$$ for aftermarket btw)/low unsprung weight. Stock with some new pads should be adequate. If you want to lower the brake weight, convert to a DX/CX, etc. setup(assuming you have an EX/Si). They use a 9.5" rotor instead of 10.3" and a tad smaller caliper.

Those lightweight RX7 rims are brittle, even then you can't run them unless you convert to a 5-lug setup.

[lsturbohatch10]

i dont think upgrading to a 17 inch wheel will be to your benefit. get some 16s or 15s aftermarket that will hold a 205 tire. rotas are my bet. and a camber kit will help. the inside of the tire is the only thing making contact with the road. Nitto Neo Gens ftw

[xxbrualxx]

well...lets c here...camber kit will def. help..but liek eveyroine said..FWD cars drawback is understeer..shitty tires we'll cause excessive udnersteer..but evne then shouldnt be too bad..in the winter i have the all-season honda supplied Michelin Symmetry's on my 14" steelies...i mean they arent the greatest most expensive tire..but never have i had a REAL problem with them..except when im being a dick and getting on it..they cant take as much abuse obviously as my Proxes...

i had those Yokohama avids on my old rims before..they werent bad at all either..no problems with understeer in the rain...my car is stock height..with an ITR strut bar...and i think i take corners faster then most other ppl with any of the above mentioned tires...

my suggestion is new tires...and if ur still gettin "excessive" understeer check ur suspension...or maybe u just have a lot of stuff in ur car weighing it down?more weight around corners causes more inertia..the harder the tires have to work to grip ur car and change its direction..i mean that affects handling too..

ex. one time i had 4 ppl in the car..my subs as usual..and this corner i usually take at a good 35..even in the wet..no problems...but that day..i took the corner..30 cause i could feel the brakes were not responding as well to the weight either..udnersteer like crazy..car just went str8 evne when i cut the wheels and let go of the brakes..ended up with half my car on somebodys lawn..haha backed out and bounced real fast..cause i left deep tire marks in it

[90EFsi]

yeah what he said

[turbohappy]

Definitely fix tires first, crap tires lie :D

[Mark80]

Thanks guys, those last four or five posts really helped alot. very constructive and the kind of info i was after. Now I know what to look at. Camber kits like everything here in the UK are overpriced but im going to look at them and some new tyres. cheers.

[Sonic]

youve got yoko hamas i recon i can guess the thread yes they do push on in the wet all civics do :D... take it handy lad.. and she wont be such a handfull....

[solo-x]

lots of variables here. if the car didn't have this problem with these tires before you lowered it i'd put my money on the alignment and/or too low/not enough suspension travel on the front of the car.

oh, and fwd cars will always understeer in the wet? come drive my car sometime. it's scary effin loose in the wet. of course, it is an autocross car being driven at 10/10ths, so it's kind of expected i guess....

[Speedjunky01]

Try not going as fast as possible round corners.......?

Find a slightly slower, safer, speed where you dont understeer......

next youll be telling him to castrate himself and make a pussy :fag:

To me it sounds like the inside of the tire is very very bald on the inside of the tire. My tires wore like this on the rear and the rear would "float" around even when just damp.

[Haysoos]

Alignment. New tires.

What about shocks? Sounds like you are experiencing more understeer than you should, meaning something in the suspension is letting you down. I would recommend aftermarket shocks. Either adjustables like the KYB AGXs, or OEM replacements like KYB GR2s, and Koni Reds.

It just sounds to me like the car is making a hash of the wieght transfer and not getting the rubber down properly. This could be bad rubber, bad shocks, bad shock/spring combo, or bad alignment. After that, I would look at getting tires with decent wet traction. Also, do you have strut bars at all? Might not be a bad idea to stiffen up the chassis.

Hope this helps.

[solo-x]

fyi, strut bars do only one thing really well. they lighten your wallet. after that, they take up space and give you something else to polish. add strut bars if you like, but i'm telling you now it won't do a damn thing to improve the handling of your car. and if someone feels like coming back with "they stiffen the chassis!", you best bring some imperical evidence because "my car creaks less" or "i pick up my rear tire now" or "it feels stiffer" is not a valid argument nor useful evidence that an improvement in handling was made. i'll save you some time though, you won't find any such evidence because there is none. additionally, i've done real world testing with a DL1 data logger that shows no advantage to having any strut bars.

ps. a full weld in cage is a different story.

[Sexicivic2000]

I also experienced this problem i got new struts alignment and tires and noticed a dramatic change but still need the camber kits

[Mark80]

Thats great guys, i have ideas at what to look at now and what to change, i think after market shocks( could i change just the front shocks?) and new tyres will be top of my list, after seeing how that feels Ill look at camber kits.

[Steve-O]

i would say tires should be the first. ive seen guys with modified cars get CRAZY grip at wet auto'x events simply by making tire changes for wet conditions so i know it can be done.

driving habits and knowing your car's limits should be adjusted for dry and wet conditions as well. you won't be able to push your car's dry pavement boundaries on wet simply because of the compromised grip that water on the road surface introduces. hydroplaning requires a tire (directional usually) that can evacuate water away from the contact surface.

skinny tires are good in snow conditions. watch any WRC rally and you will see they go to a skinny studded tire for snow and ice stages :TU:

always remember...power is nothing without control :TU:

[turbohappy]

Yep, definitely check alignment (toe) as well.