camber/ new Ksport coilover not for Noob

[baby50]

gentlemen, i just installed new ksport coilover for my 88 4dr dx and am loving it but went to get car aligned and prior to install with worn struts/springs car slighty out of spec with negative camber all around. Now with coilovers installed and dropping car 1.25 fronand 1.00 inch rear camber is now drastically out at -2.76 f and -1.8r. With such a minor drop i am wondering if there is something else in the suspension i should be looking at like bushings...etc before i even invest in a camber kit. Any suggestions are appreciated.

XLS

[SOHC_Rules]

i personally wouldnt worry about it, but thats me.

just get a camber kit front and rear.

[The_Acid_Beaver]

Under three degrees isn't that much camber. I don't think it's even enough to show much wear on the inner sides of your tires, especially if you rotate them every oil change. If you are that concerned, get a camber kit. They are pretty easy to install and will give you more peace of mind.

[baby50]

Main reason i am concerned is i just put brand new16 inch BF Goodrich G-force sport tires on car that cost me a pretty penny and dont want to f these up like i did with Toyo proxes i had on prior. Ok so i am hearing camber kit so far and wont on ebay and saw a plethora of crap as well as skunk 2. Any products better than the other or will something like this work fine. Please see attachment.

[99EJ6T]

Under three degrees isn't that much camber. I don't think it's even enough to show much wear on the inner sides of your tires, especially if you rotate them every oil change.

umm last time i checked, camber doesn't effect actual wear, just the pattern of wear, actual rate of wear across the entire tire is still the same.

Main reason i am concerned is i just put brand new16 inch BF Goodrich G-force sport tires on car that cost me a pretty penny and dont want to f these up like i did with Toyo proxes i had on prior. Ok so i am hearing camber kit so far and wont on ebay and saw a plethora of crap as well as skunk 2. Any products better than the other or will something like this work fine. Please see attachment.

get a camber kit, but i would also look for a bad bushing. just to be on the safe side, since you probubly have a bad one (just my .02). BTW SK2 camber kit FTW

[The_Acid_Beaver]

On some of the cars I've seen, having cust springs and blown shocks (the car is bascially riding on the bump stops), the inside of the tire will be worn to bald and the outside of the tire will be fairly new. Yes, I know that there are other effects that can mangle tires (like having your toe all wonky), but in some extreme cases, camber can kill tires rather quickly.

[99EJ6T]

camber can kill tires rather quickly.

i do not believe so, but i am open to proof.

[TAGs95CivicEX]

Camber is actually going to make the tire wear faster. with the Camber off center you are putting more wieght on the inside or outside of the tire and if drastic enough the tire will only contact the road on the inside or outside of the tread. Making it an uneven wear pattern, but an uneven wear pattern causes excellerated tire wear.

Caster however does not wear your tire, but will affect your steering

Toe will usually "feather" the tread on your tire, and can cause steering to be a slut.

-TAG

[99EJ6T]

Camber is actually going to make the tire wear faster.

funny, this goes against everything i have read and experianced. but i have not owned every car or worked on every car, so i will now shut the hellup.

[TAGs95CivicEX]

Actually I'd love to get to the bottom of it, becuase you saying that it will not wear faster is against everything I've ever known or been taught. A tire that is only wearing on half the tire, is that not going to make it wear out faster?
Not trying to be an ass here, just a debate of sorts


-TAG

[Sohc Wrath]

Just get front and rear camber kits, have it get aligned and call it a day...

[CrazyConscious]

Just get front and rear camber kits, have it get aligned and call it a day...

Dont even need a camber kit for the rear. Just some washers and longer hardened bolts for the rear.

[Sohc Wrath]

Dont even need a camber kit for the rear. Just some washers and longer hardened bolts for the rear.

If he doesnt want his wheels to toe out he does, I think LOL...

[CrazyConscious]

If he doesnt want his wheels to toe out he does, I think LOL...

I could have sworn all you had to do was add some washers...But maybe i dont quite understand it...

[TAGs95CivicEX]

adding washers (equal amounts under each bolt) works, but for a little added safety use longer bolts, just make sure the bolts don't bottom out.

-TAG

[solSi]

Here is a link to the bolt/washer trick.http://teamdelsol.com/technical/howto/rearCamber/default.html

[CrazyConscious]

adding washers (equal amounts under each bolt) works, but for a little added safety use longer bolts, just make sure the bolts don't bottom out.

-TAG

Thank you!

[96sohc]

Just my 2 cents, camber will not drastically wear out a tire. Toe is the main factor in tires being worn on the inside or outside, which is also what causes the tires to feather. I had air suspension on my civic and rode with the car down in the back for more than 5 thousand miles and my tires never showed any kind of bad wear. The camber of the rear wheels when all the way down in the back was very visible and as i said never caused bad wear on the tires. The rear of hondas do have slight toe adjustment, u just have to find a good shop that is willing to do it. A quick search of toe adjustment on google found this http://robearracing.com/pd_megan_racing_rear_adjustable.cfm

[TAGs95CivicEX]

Camber

Camber is the angle of the wheel, measured in degrees, when viewed from the front of the vehicle. If the top of the wheel is leaning out from the center of the car, then the camber is positive ,if it's leaning in, then the camber is negative. If the camber is out of adjustment, it will cause tire wear on one side of the tire's tread. If the camber is too far negative, for instance, then the tire will wear on the inside of the tread.


Camber wear pattern
http://www.familycar.com/classroom/Images/Align_t_camber.gif

If the camber is different from side to side it can cause a pulling problem. The vehicle will pull to the side with the more positive camber. On many front-wheel-drive vehicles, camber is not adjustable. If the camber is out on these cars, it indicates that something is worn or bent, possibly from an accident and must be repaired or replaced.

[TAGs95CivicEX]

#

Camber:
Camber is the tilting of the wheels from the vertical when viewed from the front of the vehicle. When the wheels tilt outward at the top, the camber is positive (+). When the wheel tilts inward at the top, the camber is negative (-). The amount of tilt is measured in degrees from the vertical. Camber settings influence the directional control and the tire wear.

Too much positive camber will result in premature wear on the outside of the tire and cause excessive wear on the suspension parts.

Too much negative camber will result in premature wear on the inside of the tire and cause excessive wear on the suspension parts.

Unequal side-to-side camber of 1° or more will cause the vehicle to pull or lead to the side with the most positive camber.

[TAGs95CivicEX]

CAMBER ALIGNMENT

The next important wheel alignment angle you should know something about is camber. Camber refers to the tilt of the wheels as viewed from the front or rear. Camber is the inward (negative) or outward (positive) tilt of the wheels. It is usually measured in degrees.

As with toe, zero camber (perfectly perpendicular to the road) is the ideal alignment setting. But like toe, camber changes as the vehicle is being loaded and every time the vehicle encounters a bump or dip in the road. The up and down motions of the suspension change the geometry of the control arms and struts, which causes camber to change. So many static camber alignment specifications may allow up to a degree of more of positive or negative camber depending on the design of the suspension. As a rule, camber settings should usually be within half a degree side-to-side.

If camber is out of specs, a tire will wear unevenly on one shoulder and the vehicle may pull toward the side with the most camber. Camber usually only affects one wheel, so if only one tire shows unusual shoulder wear it is usually a symptom of camber misalignment.

Keep in mind that camber applies to both front and rear wheels, though only vehicles with independent rear suspensions typically have rear camber alignment specifications. Most rear-wheel drive cars and trucks with solid axles do not have rear camber specifications because there's no way to change it (even so, a bent rear axle can cause a camber problem!).

Excessive camber can be caused by a bent spindle, mislocated strut tower, bent strut, worn or collapsed control arm bushing, bent control arm or a weak or broken spring. If any of these parts are replaced, camber should be checked and adjusted as needed after the parts have been installed. And of vehicles that do not have camber adjustments on the struts or control arms, or provide only a limited amount of adjustment, there are aftermarket camber adjustment aids that can help.

[xohcef]

On some of the cars I've seen, having cust springs and blown shocks (the car is bascially riding on the bump stops), the inside of the tire will be worn to bald and the outside of the tire will be fairly new. Yes, I know that there are other effects that can mangle tires (like having your toe all wonky), but in some extreme cases, camber can kill tires rather quickly.

I will second this, I picked up a mazda mx-6 from some ricer kid who cut the springs and struts that were shot to shit, and it ate through a set of tires every month, front and rear. EVEN after alignment. could have been a bushing problem but still every month was ridiculous

[turboedpickup]

aw man.... our accord has some camber problems... bah!!! both tires... the inner side is bald.

[Acid X]

Its true. Inside of the tires goes bye bye faster than the outside...

I know from experience on my previous car, an 88 accord.. It was dropped 2.5" and had a good 2 degrees or so of camber.. Needless to say now that i sold that car and pulled the tires off, the inside of the tires are worn pretty bad compared to the rest of the tire. The inside is almost down to steel belts when compared to the outside which still has about a 6th of an inch of tread left.

[baby50]

thanks for all the feedback and just to let you know i went and purchased an Ingalls Camber kit for the front and will try the washer longer bolt rig for the rear. I tried putting the front and just did the front right and now the upper control arm wont tuck back inside of fender so i iwill have to search suspsion forum to see where i went wrong. Anybody ever had this issue before???

[99EJ6T]

CAMBER ALIGNMENT
If camber is out of specs, a tire will wear unevenly on one shoulder and the vehicle may pull toward the side with the most camber. Camber usually only affects one wheel, so if only one tire shows unusual shoulder wear it is usually a symptom of camber misalignment.
Camber
Camber is the angle of the wheel, measured in degrees, when viewed from the front of the vehicle. If the top of the wheel is leaning out from the center of the car, then the camber is positive ,if it's leaning in, then the camber is negative. If the camber is out of adjustment, it will cause tire wear on one side of the tire's tread. If the camber is too far negative, for instance, then the tire will wear on the inside of the tread.
Camber wear pattern
http://www.familycar.com/classroom/Images/Align_t_camber.gif
If the camber is different from side to side it can cause a pulling problem. The vehicle will pull to the side with the more positive camber. On many front-wheel-drive vehicles, camber is not adjustable. If the camber is out on these cars, it indicates that something is worn or bent, possibly from an accident and must be repaired or replaced.
#
Camber:
Too much positive camber will result in premature wear on the outside of the tire and cause excessive wear on the suspension parts.
Too much negative camber will result in premature wear on the inside of the tire and cause excessive wear on the suspension parts.
Unequal side-to-side camber of 1° or more will cause the vehicle to pull or lead to the side with the most positive camber.

so it wears the effected side faster then the opposite side of the effected area on the tire (refer to the areas you have bolded <- is that a word, and i already know this). so far nothing you have listed has said anything about the tire as a whole will wear prematurely. just premature wear on the sides effected by the camber issue, so this could be considered a pattern. there for premature wear of the entire tire would not be caused by camber, just the pattern at which it wore.

btw: i consider a tire that lastes 50-70% of stated milage, ok wear (if i have an kind of suspension issue).

[kyle h.]

^^ premature wear on one side of the tire ruins the tire as a whole, no? causing you to buy new tires, rather than some inner tread to throw on top of your camber worn out tread. :p you're just agruing.

I've read that camber doesnt cause wear to the tires aslo, I've also talked to people (older, wiser) that explained camber/caster backwards. And told me camber doesnt wear tires.

I know from many years of purchasing new tires, that camber in fact wears tires unevenly, and much faster than a perfectly alinged car (for the street and max tread life). From my own experiences, if I have visible camber (which is less than a whole degree), AND I want my tires to last more than 1/4 of the miles they are rated for, I get a camber kit.


for the OP: I'd get a camber kit and front upper control arm bushings, and rear upper control arm bushings, as these are the only bushings that are going to affect your camber that dramatically. But new bushings all around in a almost 20 year old car, always makes it feel new and responsive.

[oranges]

In my observations as a body shop mechanic (who had to do a lot of alignments on cars in varying degress of smashedness), there are a number of things to keep in mind:

Toe: Obviously, needs to be left-right symmetrical, and toe in or out setup can vary based on the desired handling, but its important to know that on a fwd car, the front wheels will toe themselves in under throttle, whereas a rwd will toe out. In case its not immediately apparent, this is because the fwd has the wheels pulling themselves forward around the steering axis, whereas the rwd has the fronts dragging rearward around the steerig axis. This should be kept in mind when aligning. Excessive toe in or out (and this can have a lot to do with the throttle-toe effect) will absolutley shred the inside or outside 1/4-1/3 of the tire, depending on which way the tire is toed.

excessive toe-in tends to feel dead, whereas excessive toe-out feels darty, and one in and one out results in an off-center steering wheel.

Camber: In my experience, camber does not have a much an effect on premature wear as it is made out to. If a tire is excessively neg-cambered relative to how much hard cornering it sees, then it will develop an angled wear across the entire tread, not the ground down shoulder, which comes from bad toe. Ideally will be exactly equal side to side, but for a street driven car, a SLIGHT (0.1-0.2) of extra neg camber on the right side can help the car be more hands-free stable on the road.

Caster: In general, more caster (within limits) is felt to 'handle' better. more caster will camber the wheels into the proper direction of turning, and provide a more positive feel and stronger self-centering effect. Steering will also feel heavier, which is why a lot of fwd cars come with much less caster than rwd cars do.
Also should be approximately even from side to side, with the right wheel being slightly more positive for the same reason as with the camber. Roads are humped in the middle and a car that drives no-hands straight on a perfectly flat surface will drift off to the right unless there is a bit of caster or camber pushing it left. Also, from what Ive seen it takes less deviant caster to induce a drift (not dorifto, y0), than camber. A 0.3deg caster imbalance can feel as uneven as a 1.0deg camber imbalance.

A great portion of the cars on the road have a combination or messed-up camber and messed-up caster that wind up more-or-less evening each other out. Either one being lopsided out of spec will cause a car to drift (hands free, car starts to gently move to one side), but if caster is one way, and camber another in the right proportions, it'll pretty much drive straight.
HOWEVER, miles of driving with oddball alignments can develop some very intereeting wear patterns in tires that arent visible to the eye, and if allowed to go too long without rotating, certain tires can get quite directional. You wont notice until you rotate the tires and suddenly you have a pull (you have to apply effort hold the wheel straight) This is very annoying.

Ok, time to go home. I'll reread this later to make sure it it makes sense.

[99EJ6T]

^this is the impression that i am under

^^ premature wear on one side of the tire ruins the tire as a whole, no?

after alignment- no, so long as the integrity of the center section of the tire (center 50%, 25% off set from the center line) has no major wear issues, and or is above the 2/32 min sevice line.

[W8N4Boost]

99.9% of the people who lower their cars and have their tires go to shit very rapidly is the result of BOTH excessive toe and negative camber. Camber does wear the inner edge of the tires BUT if the toe is within reason, it is a very slow wearing process. So if you are too cheap to buy a camber kit at the very least get your toe set to specs. I don't care if your steering wheel is still straight after you lower, believe me when i say this YOUR TOE IS WAY OUT OF SPEC.

When you lower a Honda, the camber goes negative, when the camber goes negative, the toe goes in more than before you dropped it. Simple solution people, drop your shit, align your shit and you will have minimal problems. Thanks for listening, i'm out.

[96sohc]

I second what w8n4boost says! Negative or positive camber up to 2 degrees could easily still be within factory specs on some vehicles