Black Vs Brown

[crxdude]

will the brown top dohc zc head bolt to the black top block?

[EJ1All-Star]

yes, everything will bolt up when i had to replace a headgasket on my zc i had to go to acura and get a 89 teg gasket. worked great

[crxdude]

Do I Got To Chang Anything

[JDMEF7]

Yep.
It'll bolt up alright but will raise the compression, the black top head is pent roof, it has a 43cc combustion chmber and big domes on the pistons (pm7)
The brown top uses a flat top piston and has a smaller combustion chmber in the head.
So if you put the brown top head with the black top pistons you'll get higher compression. If you want it stock get soem brown top PG6b pistons.
Dizzy wont though from memory and watch out for Cam pully sizes.
Brown top uses bigger cam pullies and a bigger crank pully.
Black top uses smaller, you cant mix match.

The dizzy is not a big deal though as you should be able to run the brown top one with an external coil.

[crxdude]

are the t-belts the same and wut about the dizzy?

[JDMEF7]

are the t-belts the same and wut about the dizzy?
Brown top timing belt is longer I think, I cant quite remember best to check.
Dizzy as I said above wont chance over you have to use a brown top dizzy with a brown top head and vise versa, the bolts dont line up. If you want to modify it then it can be done easy enough but if you want a bolt up just use a brown top dizzy and external coil. (which means you'll also need vacuum advance off the inlet manifold) the black top dizzy does it internally electronically through the ecu.

[crxdude]

dose it matta if the brown top is carbd or efi

[crxdude]

and where do i look 4 this info i lookd and looked in old fourms and cant find jack

[JDMEF7]

I've never had anything to do with the carbed brown tops so wouldn't know.

I didn't get any of that information off forums, it's 1st hand experience. I have 4 1/2 ZC's on the floor in the shed (2 in cars as well). and have experimented with a number of configurations :)

[rushi]

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'll give it a try..

AFAIK the brown top (=ZC1) has older and simpler engine management, and it handles only fuel injection. This means two things; There's no sufficient sensors in dizzy to use with newer ECUs, and it has mechanical/vacuum advance dizzy with separate igniter(power stage) and coil. So it's possible, that efi/carb engines have the same dizzy too. Maybe slight difference in dizzy springs or something..

Please correct if this is not true, I would like to have some verification too about this.

[JDMEF7]

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I'll give it a try..

AFAIK the brown top (=ZC1) has older and simpler engine management, and it handles only fuel injection. This means two things; There's no sufficient sensors in dizzy to use with newer ECUs, and it has mechanical/vacuum advance dizzy with separate igniter(power stage) and coil. So it's possible, that efi/carb engines have the same dizzy too. Maybe slight difference in dizzy springs or something..

Please correct if this is not true, I would like to have some verification too about this.

Pretty sure you're right but you'll probably need (as I said above) to run the mechanical vacuum advance with a tube from the inlet manifold.

[mrtrex]

Thas a crazy manifold you got there!

[JDMEF7]

Thas a crazy manifold you got there!

Yeah it's not mine it's off a lotus elise with a K20 honda squeezed in there.

[crxdude]

fuckin thred jackers

[JDMEF7]

fuckin thred jackers
Piss off mate I've already given you the info you were after now go do some research for yourself.

[shadowboy]

Yep.
It'll bolt up alright but will raise the compression, the black top head is pent roof, it has a 43cc combustion chmber and big domes on the pistons (pm7)
The brown top uses a flat top piston and has a smaller combustion chmber in the head.
So if you put the brown top head with the black top pistons you'll get higher compression. If you want it stock get soem brown top PG6b pistons.
Dizzy wont though from memory and watch out for Cam pully sizes.
Brown top uses bigger cam pullies and a bigger crank pully.
Black top uses smaller, you cant mix match.

The dizzy is not a big deal though as you should be able to run the brown top one with an external coil.


the brown top and black top heads have the same size combustion chamber (43cc). the ONLY thing that makes them different in compression ratio is the piston shape. (and deck height, the black top ZC has a slightly higher compression height--but that is due to piston design, too).


the black top distributor and cyl sensor will not bolt to a brown top head head though. the bolt patterns are different.


Brown top timing belt is longer I think, I cant quite remember best to check.
Dizzy as I said above wont chance over you have to use a brown top dizzy with a brown top head and vise versa, the bolts dont line up. If you want to modify it then it can be done easy enough but if you want a bolt up just use a brown top dizzy and external coil. (which means you'll also need vacuum advance off the inlet manifold) the black top dizzy does it internally electronically through the ecu.


brown top timing belt is only longer because the brown top has bigger cam sprockets. DO NOT use brown top cam sprockets on a black top short block. your engine will be damaged before the first cylinder fires (bent valves).

[nzcivicracer]

the black top distributor and cyl sensor will not bolt to a brown top head head though. the bolt patterns are different.


Will the brown top distributer run on a black top head (with modification of course).
I have an E-AT Mugen ECU that I want to try use :cool:

[shadowboy]

Will the brown top distributer run on a black top head (with modification of course).
I have an E-AT Mugen ECU that I want to try use :cool:


you can sort of use a brown top dizzy on a black top head if you use the black top #6 cam cap.

i do not recommend this as your distributor will be held on by one and only one bolt.

[JDMEF7]

you can sort of use a brown top dizzy on a black top head if you use the black top #6 cam cap.

i do not recommend this as your distributor will be held on by one and only one bolt.

I've seen one done on a Rally AT civic running a black top head here and theyed modified the mounts to use the brown top dizzy, All bolts were used but the mounts were moved. It was apparently pretty easy to do.

[4Door Life]

Piss off mate I've already given you the info you were after now go do some research for yourself.

bwahahahahahahaaaaaa


sorry but damn, that was funny....

[MADCIVIC]

a gold top head must be able to be modified to take the black top dizzy? im sure it has been done. possibily baxter(nzhondas forums) has done it.

will check and find out.

is the black top head any better than the gold top head? ie does it flow beffer? any thoughts?

Tom

[jlicrx]

a gold top head must be able to be modified to take the black top dizzy?here are the D16A1 heads side by side, showing the differences in distributor and cylinder sensor mounting holes - the "browntop" ZC is the same as the 86-87 D16A1 and the "blacktop" ZC is the same as the 88-89 D16A1 - one thing that isn't shown is the #6 camshaft caps - the 88-89 cap is a lot taller than the 86-87

[CRX1.4DualCarb]

here are the D16A1 heads side by side, showing the differences in distributor and cylinder sensor mounting holes - the "browntop" ZC is the same as the 86-87 D16A1 and the "blacktop" ZC is the same as the 88-89 D16A1 - one thing that isn't shown is the #6 camshaft caps - the 88-89 cap is a lot taller than the 86-87



ok, and what about the combustion chamber volume? Someone said in the posts above that it was smaller and someone said it was the same.

Who's right?

[jlicrx]

ok, and what about the combustion chamber volume? Someone said in the posts above that it was smaller and someone said it was the same.

Who's right?
the combustion chambers are the same

[MADCIVIC]

does the black top head flow better than the brown top?

i know the manifolds are verry different and the gold top has 2 butterflys which allows less air but has shorter/longer runners for more torque.

Tom

[MADCIVIC]

just to bring this post back to life,

does anyone know if there are mounting brackets on the black top head to run ZC1 powersteering?

i have both heads side by side but havent started pulling them down, from a visual they look like they will work but unsue.

any help appreciated.

i have to keep power steering as i have purchased a steering quickener and with 2:1 reduction it becomes to hard to steer with out.

cheers
Tom

[nzcivicracer]

does the black top head flow better than the brown top?


Yeah they do, apparently they inherited a little tech from Hondas F1 program at the time :o

Unsure about the steering though, best bet is to give it a go, see if the brackets bolt up.