Power expectations?

[PSmurf78]

Hey guys,

A lot of you have more experience then I do with honda's, so I wanted to present what I'm doing and see what people think I can expect out of the car. It's just going to be a daily driver as I've already got two other cars built for track/competition. I'm rebuilding the engine, because it's got about 200K on it, and I wanted something to be more fresh for becoming a DD. Also, I wanted it to have a little more "umph".

95 Civic EX

D16Z6
P29 Pistons, .020 OS
Stock rods, thinking of getting them shotpeened
1.5MM HG, (using a block guard to prevent cyl wobble/walk, also getting the block o-rigged for better seal)
All fresh seals, oil pump, water pump, etc...

Z6 Head
Crower Stg 2 Cam
Crespo valve springs
Minor port on intake/exh

Tuning/Misc
P28 ECU chipped with Hondata.
Already had I/H/E on the car

Anyways, some of the work is already being done. I've got the block off at the machine shop to get the bore done, and get the o-ring cut. I don't know if it's really needed, but the o-ring is a cheap process to have done, so I figured why not.

I haven't started in on the head yet, just cause I'm not sure what level of porting I should even attempt. I was thinking I'll probably just take it out to match gaskets.

So, question time:
Should I even look at the intake manifold? Is there something that's needed here?
Are there any other obvious things I should do that I'm missing?
Any idea what I can expect out of this engine?

Anyways, any advice, opinions, comments, whatever is appreciated. I've been around the block with Mazda's and Toyota's, but this is my first Honda to play with.

Thanks
Drew

[Jcazz]

You have a nice list there already for your "DD" car....shit it isnt even smog legal LOL...but if you are looking for a tad more...i say, Port and polish the head by a good machine shop that is used to working with Hondas...on the "Butt dyno" i was able to tell a nice difference in a throaty sound and a nice Tq gain...acutal numbers. have no clue, but its there! second, If you are using the Stock intake mani, go with a Edelbrock Performer X with a nice 60mm TB or 62mmTB either or....this should help out with throttle response as well as a nice small increase in usable power in the upper RPM range...
After this, for more power i would have to say Turbo...as nothing else is going to be economical to gain more power...ESP if this is your DD...
if you are looking for a tad bit more do other things that alot of people just simply overlook...Suspension upgrades!!! wheel offsets ETC...And rework the Tranny a little to whatever ur needs may be, and you will have a nice lil DD to play with..that rides like pillow and not like a brick..

[rushi]

1.5MM HG, (using a block guard to prevent cyl wobble/walk, also getting the block o-rigged for better seal)


This is completely unnecessary and waste of money with such a low state of tune NA engine. BG is actually needed only when heavily boosted (actually, I have one in my NA engine, but it's pretty highly tuned too).

O-ringing is completely unnecessary for Honda engines IMO, and stock Honda OEM MLS head gasket is perfect for even highly tuned/boosted engine. I've run 12:1 cr achieved with PM7 pistons with stock cam without problem, there's no reason to lower cr with thicker HG (unless you must use very poor quality fuel). Just my opinion.

[Jcazz]

This is completely unnecessary and waste of money with such a low state of tune NA engine. BG is actually needed only when heavily boosted (actually, I have one in my NA engine, but it's pretty highly tuned too).

O-ringing is completely unnecessary for Honda engines IMO, and stock Honda OEM MLS head gasket is perfect for even highly tuned/boosted engine. I've run 12:1 cr achieved with PM7 pistons with stock cam without problem, there's no reason to lower cr with thicker HG (unless you must use very poor quality fuel). Just my opinion.

X2

[Eyal 951]

I am running stage 2 cam, 11.4:1 CR, .040 OS and a good amount more then your list, definetly no need for block gaurd, or o ringing, or a massive HG like a 1.5mm. I actually took out the middle layer of my factory HG to make it thinner. My engine is still far from detonation on 91 octane.

Your probably looking at about 130-135 whp if you run the right compression.

[PSmurf78]

Haha, I'm lucky on the smog issue. First off, being in WA, I don't have the visual, and second my GF's parents live where the cars don't have to be smogged, so it's easy to reg the car there. :)

I've thought about the turbo route, but if I went down that route again with the Civic, I think she'd probably kill me. And I mean literally... She's put up with my SCCA street modified project for the last two years. If I dared suggest another....

[PSmurf78]

I am running stage 2 cam, 11.4:1 CR, .040 OS and a good amount more then your list, definetly no need for block gaurd, or o ringing, or a massive HG like a 1.5mm. I actually took out the middle layer of my factory HG to make it thinner. My engine is still far from detonation on 91 octane.

Your probably looking at about 130-135 whp if you run the right compression.


Interesting, from the info I found, it looked like the P29 pistons would raise the compression over 12:1. The reason for the 1.5mm HG was to bring it back down to around 11.4 or so.

[jimmyb34]

130-135 whp tops... you can run a stock hg with that setup if you can run 93-94 octane

[PSmurf78]

Dang, I'd hope for more the 12-17 over what it put down before. Previously, I've gotten as high as 118 whp, with just I/H/E and some tuning. Oh well, it's just a fun side project anyways. Unfortuantly, most of the pumps out here only rate as high as 92... If I lived closer to Aurburn, there's a station down there that sells as high as 100 at the pumps.

[gloryhog]

with the mods you listed and the engine managment ...I say you will easily hit 140 whp / 106 tq.

you have great compression , a good cam, a ported head...
I am making that without several things on your list, so I do not understand where you guys are coming up with 130...:noway:

[Eyal 951]

You have intake manifold, and TB. (grnated, he could easily pickup a TB as well)

To the OP, I made 144whp, and 122wtq. You can search for my build thread if you are interested in finding out what went into that... stock head ports btw.

As for pistons, yes, I overlooked the fact that you will use p29's. I used PM6, and with about .010 off the block, .010 off the head, and the middle layer removed from my OEM HG, and .040 over, it put me right at 11.44:1 CR. I am a fan of the flat pistons as well.

[PSmurf78]

I'd like to see in the 140's...

Okay... so does anyone see anything really obvious that I'm missing? I didn't list the smaller things like fresh seals/gaskets, arp studs, etc.. Trying to go for a fresh engine, that hopefully will be reliable.

[PSmurf78]

alright lady's and gents...
I've got a few hours scheduled on one of the local dyno's tomorrow. The car is running strong, but I've only got about 250 miles on the new motor.

I think everything is ready though. No visible leaks, good oil pressure, new plugs, cap, rotor, etc...

P29 pistons in a D16Z6. Zex/Comp Stg 2 cam, with some after market valve springs. 1.5mm HG, minor porting, and everything balanced. I've pulled back the static timing to 14 degrees, but that might change tomorrow :)

Both the intake and exhaust were matched to the gaskets. No cat, DC header, cat back exhaust. It also has a short ram intake.

So that's the motor.... Once I get the final sheet's I'll post them up, but any bets on what it'll make?

[labatt2k]

any bets on what it'll make?

132whp... first run... and 140whp when its tuned

[slowturbocx]

good luck man! i hope she pulls some good numbers.

[BigTuna]

depends on what kind of dyno? Mustang 120, Dynojet 130 Corrected/ 137 Uncorrected, DynoPak 140.

[PSmurf78]

Mustang dyno. Runs will be done in 4th gear. About a year ago, I ran 118 at the wheels with the same bolt-ons, though it was a stock motor with like 170K on it. It was the initial tuning for the hondata.

[BigTuna]

130 is my guess then

[PSmurf78]

Well, didn't get quite the numbers I wanted. There was an electrical issue that cropped up though. For some reason it looks like the vtec solenoid was acting up. Near redline, I was getting CEL and it dropped out of VTEC and pulled timing back.

So anywayswe played with VTEC and managed to get a few runs where it lasted long enough to get to redline.

Final numbers: 132.1HP, 109.5 Ft/lbs.

Whats interesting is it looks like the exhaust is too big. I need more back pressure in the 3K-4.8K range. Tq was level except for that range. I had about a 5-7 ft/lb drop there.

So it looks like about 150 at the crank. Not too shabby, but I've gotta get the VTEC issue taken care of first. I think theres more still to come...

I'll post the sheets soon, gotta scan them

[BigTuna]

Final numbers: 132.1HP, 109.5 Ft/lbs.


130 is my guess then

Damn close missed it by 2hp...

Anyway what size is the exhuast?

[PSmurf78]

Too big. it's mandrel 2.5". I wonder if I could get away with a restrictor of sorts. Otherwise, I'll have to consider finding a different setup.

[BigTuna]

My car made more power and torque with a 2inch full exhaust than open header.Just my experience...

[Sexicivic2000]

I recently put together a setup for my buddy 96 civic ex y7 bottom end (stock) stage 2 crower head package y8 comp cam gear I/H/E tuned Hondat s200 and it layed down 147whp/124ft @ 7900Rpm at churchs dyno

[horny_devil]

haha churchs dyno thats y

[BigTuna]

haha churchs dyno thats y

Lol everyone is a happy leaving that place

[PSmurf78]

Aw... another update.

We decided to take the car to an autox practice to play with it. Things went well till the end. There weren't many people, so the car didn't really stop for about an hour. At the end, coolant started to leak. It looked like coolant was boiling from the overflow tank. It also looked like a bunch of the coolant had backed into the overflow. When I took the radiator cap off, the coolant level was down.

The car temp gauge never moved from the normal op temp, and the fan wasn't on. I topped it off, drove it about 30 to home, and checked the levels again. Everything looked normal. Coolant levels looked the same, no boiling, and again the temp gauge never moved.

I didn't see any oil in the coolant. I'm going to check the oil in a few mins to see if it looks like coolant got into there.

Sucky stuff... I thought the car was doing alright.

[BigTuna]

Stock Gauges only have three readings Cold,Normal, and Boom

[PSmurf78]

Yeah, what's strange is I would have expected the gauge to move, or the fan to come on (it came on at other times though). I'm wondering if I didn't burp the system well enough. After driving it home and around a bit, no issues, no change in coolant, etc..

[94EXa2]

damn, thats basically the setup i was lookin 4 with my z6 (just thinner hg) but idk now after those numbers

[PSmurf78]

Since it looks like my last update was removed due to the fun and excitement of the pink D-series day, I thought I'd repost with a consolidation of ideas:

I thought you guys might find this interesting. It's the dyno results from last week. Final power levels were 138 HP @ 6600-6700 RPM. 114 ft/lbs at 5500 rpms.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e167/PSmurf78/scan0001.jpg

Some interesting notes:

1. VTEC got smoothed and lowered. It comes on now at 5250 rpm.

2. Around 6200 you can see the graph starts to get spiky. Spark is starting to get a bit inconsistent. One trick I need to do but haven't done yet is gap the spark plugs smaller. If I go down from 44 to like 36 or so, I should see a more stable higher RPM levels.

3. Torque takes a major drop off of at 6500 and up. The motor is running into some major breathing issues at this point. I'm shopping around now for a 4-1 header with long primaries. That should bump torque. I'm also looking into a full cold air intake, a slightly larger throttle body, maybe a after market intake manifold (reconsidering this now, more on this later) and probably a phenolic spacer between the manifold and the head. These should help increase HP, especially higher up.

I'm hoping that the headers will correct the issue of the torque loss from 3K to 5200. I've got to be a little careful with the intake changes, because if I go to much, I'll lose on the lower end, which would hurt daily driving.

-- Update on the intake manifold: When I had some head work done, I forgot that I'd taken in the intake mani also and had them port match the IM, gaskets, and ports on the head. I'm thinking now that I can go to a 60 MM tb, match the IM to that, and run a better CAI (with larger tubing) and that will be sufficient there.