View Full Version : what causes from wheels to feel like the tires are skipping in corners?
I know its got to be something wrong with my suspension.. THe car didnt used to do this.. Is it from being too stiff up front? not stiff enough? Tires ? (i have falken azenis 195 60 14s at 30psi
It happens at speeds i know the car can take the turns... it almost feels like im turning the wheel too far and the wheels slide, but not smoothly, they studder, like sliding on ice just not smooth..
latapx
07-27-2006, 08:47 AM
I know its got to be something wrong with my suspension.. THe car didnt used to do this.. Is it from being too stiff up front? not stiff enough? Tires ? (i have falken azenis 195 60 14s at 30psi
It happens at speeds i know the car can take the turns... it almost feels like im turning the wheel too far and the wheels slide, but not smoothly, they studder, like sliding on ice just not smooth..
That sounds to me like extreme understeer...with an emphasis on extreme!
i dunno. i mean the car still corners great, its just when i push it... it migh tjust be normal loss of traction from accelerating whiel turning but i could swear it never used to do it
rusty civic
07-27-2006, 09:22 AM
take it to get alinement(i think i just spelled that wrong) anyway check the caster, camber, toe, somthing could me worn or bent.
vietnameeh
07-27-2006, 12:58 PM
u may wanna up the air in your tires...u mite be rolling on ur sidewalls..
i notice that happening to the newbies at our autox events... not enough air ... them understeering with the crazy sidewall noise and studdering
think i should bump up to 40psi then? i dunno.
i stiffened up my rear struts, it seems to have helped a bit, but then it started raining, which means no driving of the car, because even an easy turn at 20mph the damn car slides out
car does hold to the road a good bit better with the rear end stiffeend more. i think im gonna go one more setting stiffer. i know they were a few more settings stiffer and the car understeered horribly when i got it..
im guessing if the car is setup to take tight, low speed turns well it wont take higher speed, less aggriessive turns as well...
d16a6 power
07-27-2006, 09:46 PM
What suspension mods do you have? Including anti sway bars etc.
dustin_crxsi
07-27-2006, 09:51 PM
You dont want to go too stiff, because then it'll start to hop. Wheel hop around corners at high speeds leads to bad news. Unless the road is smooth, no bumps, gravel, etc. Take it slower. It be sad to see a person killed while taking a corner at high speeds.
vietnameeh
07-28-2006, 12:25 AM
You dont want to go too stiff, because then it'll start to hop. Wheel hop around corners at high speeds leads to bad news. Unless the road is smooth, no bumps, gravel, etc. Take it slower. It be sad to see a person killed while taking a corner at high speeds.
again... where do your facts come from?
dustin_crxsi
07-28-2006, 12:28 AM
again... where do your facts come from?
What the fuck do you have aginst me?
I know this for a fact that When I was taking a corner, after the struts were very stiff, the back end started to hop. Wtf is your problem anyways? Its like what ever I post you have something aginst me.
car has front and rear sways, not sure what size, front and rear strut bars, as well as front and rear lower tie bars... Adjustable struts and i think the previous owner has it sittin on like 700lb springs..
vtec-e94hatch
07-28-2006, 04:35 AM
hade the same problem with my crx it was the damn front struts they were fucked horrable i mean i could hadel the car going 40 mph threw any turn
vietnameeh
07-28-2006, 12:31 PM
What the fuck do you have aginst me?
I know this for a fact that When I was taking a corner, after the struts were very stiff, the back end started to hop. Wtf is your problem anyways? Its like what ever I post you have something aginst me.
its not i have anything against you its just you have no real hard facts to back your statements...
vietnameeh
07-28-2006, 12:33 PM
car has front and rear sways, not sure what size, front and rear strut bars, as well as front and rear lower tie bars... Adjustable struts and i think the previous owner has it sittin on like 700lb springs..
hmm 700lb springs are incredibly stiff are you sure?....what brand are they?
if so your shocks prolly cant handle those kind of rates u would need somerace valved shocks...
d16a6 power
07-28-2006, 12:35 PM
car has front and rear sways, not sure what size, front and rear strut bars, as well as front and rear lower tie bars... Adjustable struts and i think the previous owner has it sittin on like 700lb springs.. Well 700 lb springs is way too much for the street. Are you sure about this? If they are, then the dampers are probably not valved correctly for the rates.
latapx
07-28-2006, 12:35 PM
car has front and rear sways, not sure what size, front and rear strut bars, as well as front and rear lower tie bars... Adjustable struts and i think the previous owner has it sittin on like 700lb springs..
700lb springs is way aggressive for a track car, nevermind a street car. Unless if you have custom shocks, there is not an off the shelf shock that will handle these rates. Do you know F/R spring rates? If the front is way stiffer you'll have major understeer...if the rear is way stiffer you'll either have a balanced car or major oversteer depending on alignment.
vietnameeh
07-28-2006, 12:40 PM
id try upping ur air pressure to lets try 40 and try 36-40 in the back
and what struts are you using? depending what kind u may wanna try full stiff in the rear and and click or turn before full stiff in the front... that is if u want the car to rotate a little better.... or just try full stiff all around
let us know.... dang 700lb springs make me kind of jealous haha
i forget the struts.. well i know the rears are kyb agx's, and i think the fronts are too, assuming the front setup is adjustable from the top of the shaft in the engine bay.. because the front and rears are the same color..
front is set on.. 2 or 1 (out of 4) and i just set the rear to 6 out of 9 or 10..
also, my right front lower balljoint nut was loose and sitting on the cotterpin.. so that could have been it. i think that was the tire that skipped the most.
TheShortlyFunnys
08-03-2006, 02:15 PM
It sounds like a conglomeration of problems. I'll try to run them down, one-by-one:
1. Not enough air. Falkens like to have a good amount of air in them, so definitely try 38-40 in the front to start.
2. Balljoint: yep, that would definitely cause it. Of course, if the nut is loose, the ball joint, itself, may be worn out.
3. 700# front springs: it's not that the rates are bad, but if you have KYB AGX's in the front with 700# springs, you are seriously oversprung. I found that even using 325# springs in my WRX on AGX's was too much, at times. A close friend is running 700# fronts, with 1000# rears, on an 89 EF hatch, but he's using Konis. The set-up is actually very good for autocrossing.
In order, I would do 2-3-1, since loose suspension and over-sprung struts are pretty much definite problems, then tinker with the tire pressures when all is said and done.
turbohappy
08-04-2006, 07:00 AM
1. You should not be driving this hard on the street. Assuming this is for autocross and you just didn't mention it...
2. You need about 40 lbs in the fronts.
3. 450F/550R is ideal for a Civic Si on Falkens, CRX might even be lower since it's lighter.
4. Even with 450F/550R, you really need revalved shocks.
5. How low are you? You could very well be hitting the bump stops.
6. Of course everything in the suspension needs to be tight to work properly. If it's not, take care of that first.
latapx
08-04-2006, 07:57 AM
A close friend is running 700# fronts, with 1000# rears, on an 89 EF hatch, but he's using Konis. The set-up is actually very good for autocrossing.
I hope that the surface is glass smooth!!! Then again, with those rates you wouldn't need to run sway bars which would keep the inside front on the ground...but still VERY high rates for a 2000lb car.
...and :TU: to what turbohappy said....
when I was running STS on the old 215 falkens I was running 32F and 24-26R...the new 615 needs about 37F and 30Rn depending on setup/camber. BUT, you have much bigger problems before you get to that point of pinpointing tire pressure.
turbohappy
08-04-2006, 09:00 AM
I hope that the surface is glass smooth!!! Then again, with those rates you wouldn't need to run sway bars which would keep the inside front on the ground...but still VERY high rates for a 2000lb car.
...and :TU: to what turbohappy said....
when I was running STS on the old 215 falkens I was running 32F and 24-26R...the new 615 needs about 37F and 30Rn depending on setup/camber. BUT, you have much bigger problems before you get to that point of pinpointing tire pressure.
Thanks! I've seen rates that high on a RR car, but not for auto-x. You have to just be catching air all over the place.
Interesting info on the tire pressures. I've been running 40/32 all year on the 215s..keeping everything exactly the same and working on the driver has brought tremendous improvement this year.
remoer
08-04-2006, 09:25 AM
that some very intresting posting. i'm in the process in doing a revamp on the supension on my 90 crx. since it's a dx it doesn't have the rear swaybar mounts. i'm doing a whole "HYPER-FLEX SYSTEM Complete Master Bushing Set", A-Spec sub-frame brace, 90 integra 22mm front swaybar, and a tanabe 22mm rear swaybar and TOKICO ILLUMINA SHOCKS & SPRINGS. i will have 15"X7" rims w/ 215/50/15 Nitto Neo Geo tires but i've been looking at some Falkens, too.
the front of my car has a swaybar.. and its like, doubled up on the bushings.. i dunno why the previous owner did that.. presumably to make it stiffer..
latapx
08-04-2006, 09:56 AM
that some very intresting posting. i'm in the process in doing a revamp on the supension on my 90 crx. since it's a dx it doesn't have the rear swaybar mounts. i'm doing a whole "HYPER-FLEX SYSTEM Complete Master Bushing Set", A-Spec sub-frame brace, 90 integra 22mm front swaybar, and a tanabe 22mm rear swaybar and TOKICO ILLUMINA SHOCKS & SPRINGS. i will have 15"X7" rims w/ 215/50/15 Nitto Neo Geo tires but i've been looking at some Falkens, too.
Skip the Nitto's and get the Falken 615...it will be the best performing tire you've ever had. Go to www.edgeracing.com they should have better pricing than anyone else.
remoer
08-04-2006, 10:58 AM
Skip the Nitto's and get the Falken 615...it will be the best performing tire you've ever had. Go to www.edgeracing.com they should have better pricing than anyone else.
thanks.:TU: i hope my setup works good.
TheShortlyFunnys
08-04-2006, 01:29 PM
latapx,
I forgot to mention that it's a SM car, so it's definitely on race tires. And after talking to my buddy again, he's actually running 800# fronts. In STS, the 450/550 is a better starting point.
He had a 1" rear sway bar on it last year, but found that removing the rear sway bar has actually helped with rear traction, so he's currently running a stock front bar, and no rear sway bar.
The car is a blast to drive!! It's also putting down between 200-210whp, naturally-aspirated.
excrx
08-04-2006, 07:55 PM
Skip the Nitto's and get the Falken 615...it will be the best performing tire you've ever had. Go to www.edgeracing.com they should have better pricing than anyone else.
i had a friend that touged(spelling?)his 95 civic hatch with a jdm itr and he hated the 615's they glaze over when thay get hot.and made his car get horable understreer cause they wouldnt stick worth a crap.
vietnameeh
08-04-2006, 09:00 PM
i had a friend that touged(spelling?)his 95 civic hatch with a jdm itr and he hated the 615's they glaze over when thay get hot.and made his car get horable understreer cause they wouldnt stick worth a crap.
just because it has itr motor doesnt mean his car will handle like one ....
azenis are by far the best street tire out there...
understeer is usaully driver error (when it gets horrible understeer like you say)
turbohappy
08-05-2006, 12:10 AM
Azenis aren't a really great road racing tire either, they aren't that great really hot. Autocross is where they're at their best.
latapx
08-07-2006, 05:25 AM
latapx,
I forgot to mention that it's a SM car, so it's definitely on race tires. And after talking to my buddy again, he's actually running 800# fronts. In STS, the 450/550 is a better starting point.
He had a 1" rear sway bar on it last year, but found that removing the rear sway bar has actually helped with rear traction, so he's currently running a stock front bar, and no rear sway bar.
The car is a blast to drive!! It's also putting down between 200-210whp, naturally-aspirated.
My Civic is a CSP car also running on R compound tires...215/40-16 Kumho 710's on 16x7.5" wheels. I'm still running the 450/550 combo with an ST front bar and custom 25mm rear bar. I finally have the car cornering flat enough that it barely lifts the inside rear tire anymore...it just sticks and goes. I've been contemplating going 550F/700-800R without swaybars just as a test (mainly to keep the inside front tire planted until I can get a LSD) but I wouldn't ever consider going to 700 or 800 in the front. Any pebble would send the front end skidding (IMHO). [more of my opinion] Is that if you're having rear traction problems...it is likely either a bad alignment setup or something binding in the rear suspension. There is no reason to be struggling with rear grip on a Civic.
BTW...who's car is it? Had it competed Nationally? I ran Nationals last year in SM in a different car and was wondering if that person ran last year.
TheShortlyFunnys
08-07-2006, 10:27 AM
Neither the car nor the driver has competed at Nationals yet, but the set-up is very close to another one of our SM drivers who was at Nationals last year (John Fessler) in an EG. Actually, the EF is putting out a few more ponies at the wheel.
I co-drove the EF set-up last year (although the powertrain and suspension was on a CRX), and the car definitely tended to oversteer. But realize that the rear bar was adjusted to full stiff, and the springs rates were around 1000# in the rear. I have not had a chance to drive the car yet this year, but I hope to do so next month.
And no, the front end does not skip. Actually, it grips very well. He is running 225/50-15 Kumho V710's all the way around on 15x8" wheels, and he is running an ITR trans (with a Quaife LSD). He tried running without the front bar (with the 800# springs), but corner exits got very sketchy. Putting the front bar back on seemed to keep everything in check.
latapx
08-07-2006, 10:35 AM
Neither the car nor the driver has competed at Nationals yet, but the set-up is very close to another one of our SM drivers who was at Nationals last year (John Fessler) in an EG. Actually, the EF is putting out a few more ponies at the wheel.
I co-drove the EF set-up last year (although the powertrain and suspension was on a CRX), and the car definitely tended to oversteer. But realize that the rear bar was adjusted to full stiff, and the springs rates were around 1000# in the rear. I have not had a chance to drive the car yet this year, but I hope to do so next month.
And no, the front end does not skip. Actually, it grips very well. He is running 225/50-15 Kumho V710's all the way around on 15x8" wheels, and he is running an ITR trans (with a Quaife LSD). He tried running without the front bar (with the 800# springs), but corner exits got very sketchy. Putting the front bar back on seemed to keep everything in check.
I was gridded right next to John. Very good guy and an EXTREMELY clean car!!!!!:shocked:
I was driving the #97 Audi S4. I placed 14, owner of the car 11. Not bad for a 40 car field, my first Nationals and a very long list of reasons why we didn't do better, starting with the fact that the car is a pig at 3,263lbs. Hopefully we can make it back next year with most of the excuses fixed!
turbohappy
08-07-2006, 10:39 AM
Interesting. Without an LSD, no front bar is great for corner exit but terrible in slaloms.
latapx
08-07-2006, 10:40 AM
Interesting. Without an LSD, no front bar is great for corner exit but terrible in slaloms.
...which is the main reason that I haven't tried no front bar yet...I love the go-kart feel of the larger front bar!
turbohappy
08-07-2006, 10:41 AM
You coming to nats this year latapx? I'll be there in STS :D
I run the CRX HF front bar, it's a decent compromise between the stock and nothing.
latapx
08-07-2006, 10:51 AM
You bringing the STS car to nats this year latapx? I'll be there :D
Well, let's count the reasons why I won't be bringing my Si to STS this year:
1. Cristian Daniel Menendez, born 6/30/06. Normally you'd stop there but...
2. This weekend I just finished stripping the interior of the car to begin the installation of a roll cage for Honda Challenge. So if you need any interior bits and pieces or fender liners...I have a few!!!!
Hopefully for '07 Oliver and I will bring out the beast (S4) again. Something about 285's all around, 500+hp/tq and all wheel drive that gets my blood pumping! She's come a long way since Nat's last year. We learned alot and have made alot of adjustments. Let's see if she stays in one piece!!!
As for the Civic...up next after the cage install in no particular order are:
Tranny rebuild, LSD and final drive
Y8 fully built head + ECU upgrade for VTEC activation
Eventual bottom end rebuild for @12.5:1 CR
It'll probably be 2 years before I finish all of this...little by little and the wifie won't get too upset!
vietnameeh
08-07-2006, 11:22 AM
oooo latapx... what class will you be running for honda challenge? h4?
latapx
08-07-2006, 11:33 AM
oooo latapx... what class will you be running for honda challenge? h4?
If I put my OEM manifold back on, I can run H4. More than likely I'll run H4 anyways because the 6 or 7 other cars in H4 are all friends of mine and likely won't care...specially because they all have limited slips and final drives and I don't. Eventually, I'll end up in H1 when I finish the motor build and/or start replacing glass for lexan to try and get down to the minimum weight of 1950 for the class!
My goals right now are to get the car ready safety wise so that I can get my license in Jan-Feb when NASA holds their annual race school. Cage, Fire system, seats, etc. Once that is done and school is passed, I'll start with the performance stuff again. I'm not really building the car for a specific class...just kinda tinkering with stuff that I want to do and trying to play by the rules and where it'll land me!
vietnameeh
08-07-2006, 12:10 PM
sweet...
ya once im done with college and make a little bit of cash...im gonna start my build for h4... or go big H1 :)
turbohappy
08-07-2006, 12:34 PM
Well, let's count the reasons why I won't be bringing my Si to STS this year:
1. Cristian Daniel Menendez, born 6/30/06. Normally you'd stop there but...
2. This weekend I just finished stripping the interior of the car to begin the installation of a roll cage for Honda Challenge. So if you need any interior bits and pieces or fender liners...I have a few!!!!
Congratulations on #1!
Oh, and I actually do need fender liners and the plastic that goes under the engine bay. I was going to hit up a junkyard before nationals, but if it can be shipped cheaply and you don't want much for it I would be very interested! It wouldn't be very heavy so it would be cheap if it can be squished into a reasonably sized box.
My93Civic
08-09-2006, 06:25 PM
You guys are gurus...Damn you guys know alot about suspension. why do you run more tire pressure in the front, than on the rear turbohappy?
turbohappy
08-09-2006, 09:45 PM
You guys are gurus...Damn you guys know alot about suspension. why do you run more tire pressure in the front, than on the rear turbohappy?
40 lbs is what I've observed to be the pressure that gets maximum traction on these tires. So I run that in the front. The rear does better with a little bit less than maximum traction, so I run a bit off of optimal. I find running them low in the rear a little easier to drive than running them high, even though they both work to lessen the traction on that end.
Thanks, BTW!
latapx
08-10-2006, 05:15 AM
40 lbs is what I've observed to be the pressure that gets maximum traction on these tires. So I run that in the front. The rear does better with a little bit less than maximum traction, so I run a bit off of 40 lbs. I find running them low in the rear a little easier to drive than running them high, even though they both work to lessen the traction on that end.
Thanks, BTW!
To add to happy:
THink of it logically...which tire is doing more work AND carrying more weight? The fronts carry 60%-64% of the weight and have to accelarate, turn and brake. The rears only carry 36% - 40% of the weight and only brake slightly and carry some cornering forces.
Now, we all know that tires flex under cornering. Which tire do you think will flex more under cornering? Obviously the fronts which is why they require more pressure than the rears. The more air the tire has, the stiffer its structure becomes and the more resistant to flex it'll be.
A simple way to check if you are in the right ballpark for pressure is to use the white liquid shoe polish and place several marks (3 or 4) around the outside edge of the tire and onto the sidewall. Go out and make an autocross run and see how much of the polish gets rubbed off (the area which came in contact with the ground). If the polish is rubbed off past the edge of the tread and onto the sidewall, you need more pressure. If there is still polish left on the actual tread, you can remove some pressure. When making pressure adjustments, do it in 3-4 psi increments so that there is a noticeable difference in the feel of the car and the wear on the tire.
Once you're a little more advanced, then the pyrometer gets involved. Here temperatures are taken across the tires surface to see how the tire is getting heated up from accel, brake and cornering forces. ideally the temps would be identical across the tire which would show a tire that is being worn evenly and is completely in contact with the road. The pyrometer results will be affected by more than just psi...alignment settings and even course layout (was that last turn a hard right or did the course end with a hard braking zone) will affect the results.
TheShortlyFunnys
08-10-2006, 06:42 AM
For comparison, I'm co-driving a Saturn SC2 in STS this season, and we also run front-biased on the tire pressures (36F/30R on Kumho MX's).
I'm trying to get an 89 Si together for SM next year, but I'm having a hard time finding a nice shell in the midwest. My DD is an 89 Si, but "rusty and trusty" is a VERY appropriate name for it, and I don't think it would make the best race car.
Good luck at Nationals to everyone who is going. latapx, I'm in the same boat as you: Indiana Reese Pintar came into the world on St. Patty's Day this year. And she definitely gets most of my time (and money...)
turbohappy
08-10-2006, 07:42 AM
To add to happy:
Yeah, I didn't say that quite right. With my setup, somewhere around 36 lbs in the rear is optimal and I prefer the feel of 32 instead of around 40.
latapx
08-10-2006, 07:45 AM
Yeah, I didn't say that quite right. With my setup, somewhere around 36 lbs in the rear is optimal and I prefer the feel of 32 instead of around 40.
I've found that a little lower in the back feels better than a little higher also. In order to drive an STS Civic fast, the rear has to slide around a bit. With less pressure it seams like there is more grip and it is easier to recover...the transition from grip to slide to grip is more gradual. With too much pressure, it seams to be more abrupt and harder to bring back in line. My $0.02.:TU:
turbohappy
08-10-2006, 08:57 AM
I've found that a little lower in the back feels better than a little higher also. In order to drive an STS Civic fast, the rear has to slide around a bit. With less pressure it seams like there is more grip and it is easier to recover...the transition from grip to slide to grip is more gradual. With too much pressure, it seams to be more abrupt and harder to bring back in line. My $0.02.:TU:
Definitely. Much more manageable at the limit.
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