ITB Tech/Projects

[DOG]

I am starting this thread for those of you out there that have an interest in ITB's. Some of you have done your own projects and there are others out there that might be interested in starting there own project. Well, we will give it a shot and see what happens. Enjoy.

Redline/Weber Throttle Bodies
http://www.redlineweber.com/html/throttle_bodies/Throttle%20bodies_side_mount.htm
http://www.redlineweber.com/html/throttle_bodies/Throttle%20bodies_dcoe.htm
http://www.redlineweber.com/html/throttle_bodies/Throttle%20bodies_idf.htm
[/url]

ITB info from threads:
crazy idea need some input on ITB (http://www.d-series.org/forums/showpost.php?p=158074&postcount=64)
sloazzcivic99
http://www.d-series.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16326 (http://www.d-series.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16326&highlight=ITBs)
ITBS management ? (http://www.d-series.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15890&highlight=ITBs)
[u]Belette
http://www.d-series.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15890 (http://www.d-series.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15890&highlight=ITBs)

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=765133
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=473099
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=360601
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=13687
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14730
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=303926
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=260670

slebidia's DIY ITB pics
http://www.slebidia.addr.com/airbox.htm
http://www.slebidia.addr.com/images/itb/
http://www.slebidia.addr.com/images/intakes/

Moose's ITB Project
http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/CBR-929-ITB-project

jdmlife ITB's
http://www.westkyimports.com/forums...98&page=1&pp=10

http://www.abdgraphics.com/iansite/ianthrottlebody2.htm

Thanks to oldschoolteg and slebidia for help with the links


ITB Video links
http://www.soniderosusa.com/media/bseries.wmv
http://www.soniderosusa.com/media/bseries2.wmv
w/ a link to this setup:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1079706

[slebidia]

Some intake manifold comparison pics: http://www.slebidia.addr.com/images/intakes/

I hope to actually get a decent work area setup soon so I can fab up a few ZC and SOHC manifolds.

[oldschoolteg]

il add this to the mix 8)

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=13687

[DOG]

Sweet. I was thinking you could chop up a OBX IM. :lol: The runners are long enough and straight enough. Great info oldschool.

[oldschoolteg]

few more pics and info here

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14730

[oldschoolteg]

good info here

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=303926

and here
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=260670

[DOHCDX]

Sweet. I was thinking you could chop up a OBX IM. :lol:

i actually thought the EXACT same think last week :shock:

[DOG]

It looks as if the runners are stright enough that they would meet the TB's without too much modification. Turn a shitty IM into a decent one.lol

[DOG]

any progress guys?

[oldschoolteg]

mine should be in the mail anytime now

[oldschoolteg]

i got them in the mail on friday. Mine are smaller than what most people use. i have the 600 itbs which are 38mm. the newer 954cbr uses 42mm itbs. The 600f4i still uses 4 nozles per injector but i have no idea how much they flow :? . Hope fully my small itb equals more streetabilty and it will be easier to tune. BUT, my motor is still disassembled so i am a long way off :!:

[redzcstandardhatch]

we'll see how streetable my ITB's are, give me about one month. they'll be done then and the weather will hopefully be a lil' better here in michigan

[Moose]

Here is my project ... it is about halfway completed. The ITB's will evetually go onto my current motor which is a built 12:1 D16Z6 motor, in my 93 Civic Si

About 3-4 months ago I picked up a set of Honda CBR 929 ITB's off Ebay. I choose the Honda ITB's over Gxer or similar ITB's since the Sensors on the CBR929 ITBs are plug and play with the my engine harness (TPS, Injectors, IAT). At the Same time I picked a set of airhorns from an old-school VW.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aae.sized.jpg

Once I got the ITB's in I compared the bore spacing of the ITB'd to a Stock D16Z6 Intake Manifold ... and it is very close.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aaf.sized.jpg

Once I determined that a OE Z6 IM would work I took the ITB's and the Z6 IM to a local Fabricator .... Graeme at Canadian Cylinder Head to fabricate an manifold to adapt the ITB's to a D16Z6 head. Because the CBR ITB's are attached to the CBR head with rubber couplers, there is 2" flanges already on ITB's so the D16Z6 IM only needs some 2" alunimum flanges shaped and welded into place and some 2" silicon couplers to join the ITB's to the Manifold. He cut, shaped, welded, and ground the 2" alunimum tubing to match the oval intake ports and to match round exit ports where the ITB;s mount. This week I got the new custom adaptor back from Graeme, it is a work of art.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aak.sized.jpg

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aal.sized.jpg

Because the VW airhorns do not have the right mounting flanges to attach them to the CBR I need to fabricate some new flanges. So I took the Stock CBR Airbox and cut the old flanges out of the box

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aag.sized.jpg

and them I trimed the flanges down

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aah.sized.jpg

and then I inserted the airhorns into the flanges ... ultimately I will silicone them into the flange

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aai.sized.jpg

Once I figured out the air-horn mounting ....I then mocked up the entire ITB setup on a spare head to see if there is any issues

Here is a 3/4 view

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aam.sized.jpg

And a side view

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aan.sized.jpg

So now I am in the process of figuring out the vacuum and coolant routing, and what I am going to do with the Injectors. I have three choices, Highflow CBR inj from RC, Modified Prelude injectors in the stock CBR location, or Prelude injectors in the Z6 stock location.

Once that is done ... the tunning becomes the issue. I think i may have resolved the low vacuum issue and how it impacts tunning and the A/F maps. A local tuner is building a custom re-curved Map sensor (he builds Turbo Maps) for low vacuum situations. This hopefully will allow me to tune properly using Hondata, with out having to resort to TPS only tunning below 5k. But this is a couple of months away ...

FYI Here is a link to a bunch of pictures of the ITB project

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/CBR-929-ITB-project


Cheers

Moose

[DOG]

redzcstandardhatch
ITB setup pics/movies
http://dserieshonda.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=182

http://d-series.org/viewtopic.php?p=40929
redzcstandardhatch's itb project.

first off, let me say that this is copied from a post i did on honda-tech, so you might have seen it.....i'm posting it because some people have asked for pics and figured you'd all enjoy them because its a d-series (kinda, it on the bastard dohc zc.....i love those motors)

"ok, i finally finished my homemade ITB setup for my worked over dohc zc. the engine has a mildly built/milled head and exospeed stage 2 cams. the ITB's are cbr 954 units. the velocity stacks are OLD school weber billet stainless pieces, i torched them a bit to get a differnt effect. all the aluminum plates show are one-off cnc machined by my brother on his cnc machine (check out his website for his products, http://www.nightmarechassis.com ). thanks for takin a look, i'll post a movie soon when i get it running (currently missing the header, i'm re-designing it, should be done welding it up by next week). have a good day everybody"

http://www.staticmethod.net/itb/index.html

http://www.ef-honda.com/main/viewtopic.php?t=1846

[redzcstandardhatch]

nice work man. very cool manifold.

[90crxsi]

nice work man. very cool manifold.
speaking of manifolds and spacing, those with CBR throttle bodies, have you noticed that they are in fact two twin bodies bolted together. my 929RR came in today and i took them partially apart. one could use spacers or washers to move the two halves more apart, making the fitting almost OEM. i shall try that as i continue taking it apart. (gotta love 2001 parts, bolts and nuts break loose easily).

on the unrelated note, what is that idle control looking valve next to the idle screw?
Stan

[Moose]

Ya, I did notice that they were a pair of TB'S ... but I wanted to retain the OE configuration of Linkages, etc ... I was fabricationg a manifold ... to make a manifold that flared out slightly to mate with the CBR TB's was not an issue ... In my eyes it was the least evil of the two alternatives

The Idle valve thingy beside the idle adjuster is a "Wax" cold idle valve.

Cheers

Moose

[AudioMan]

ok, i am interested in this project. It all looks very well done. I have a few questions.

How are you gonna control idle with this setup?
Where would the IACV go?
Where would you mount the map sensor?

Also, i have a recomendation about the injectors. Now, remember i have never attempted to make ITBs before so this is just a recomendation.
I have ported and polished alot of heads before, and from experience i found that if you leave the intake ports rough, you make more power. The reason behind this is because the roughness couses turbelance and does not allow the fuel to stick to the port. Now where i am going with this is that if you position the injectors on the throttle bodies, the fuel will enter the port pretty far from the combustion chamber, giving it more time to stick to the walls. This in turn will lead to less power. Even if the fuel end up pooling up and making it to the chamber, it will not be good because it combusts best as a mist .

[DOG]

Sorry guys, someone came through and deleted a few of the original posts. I re-pasted most of it. I keep a duplicate just in case. Let me know if i missed anything.

[Moose]

AudioMan ...

ok, i am interested in this project. It all looks very well done. I have a few questions.

How are you gonna control idle with this setup?
Where would the IACV go?
Where would you mount the map sensor?

Also, i have a recomendation about the injectors. Now, remember i have never attempted to make ITBs before so this is just a recomendation.
I have ported and polished alot of heads before, and from experience i found that if you leave the intake ports rough, you make more power. The reason behind this is because the roughness couses turbelance and does not allow the fuel to stick to the port. Now where i am going with this is that if you position the injectors on the throttle bodies, the fuel will enter the port pretty far from the combustion chamber, giving it more time to stick to the walls. This in turn will lead to less power. Even if the fuel end up pooling up and making it to the chamber, it will not be good because it combusts best as a mist .


Idle is controlled by the throttle linkages ... the idle adjuster (the shaft sticking up away from the camera) "pre-tensions" the linkage, cracking the throttle open just enough to idle.

Because there is no plenum ... there is no easy way to control idle by allowing more bleed air in (via the idle air motor) to raise idle under ECU control. As a result the IACV becomes redundant, it is left hooked up just to keep the ecu happy ...


Map sensor, You willl notice a bunch of vacuum lines runing from each of the TB's ... one from each TB is tee-ed together which then feeds the MAP and the Brake booster, two other vacuum lines from cyl 1&4 feed the FPR.

Injectors ... YUP I know about the finish required on heads ... I have done a couple myself. The Current head has a 60/80 grit finish on th intake side, to help keep the fuel in suspension. I will also put a 60/80 grit finish on the Manifold as well as gasket match the manifold to the head. The ITB's step down into the Manifold, and the manifold steps into the head.(bit of anti-reversion). The head also decreses in size from the ports to the valves pretty susbstantially (I did NOT hog out the ports after port-matching, just tapered them.)

All of these things SHOULD help keep the AF mixture swirling and off the walls.


Good point on the Injector placement ... but I think the Big problem with ITB's is that there is not much space (short small runners) to help the Fuel atomise and to mix well before it hits the combustion chamber. As a result IB manufacturers typically need to put the injectors as far up the runners as possible to help the fuel mix properly.

Also the the CBR-929 injectors use 4 orifices in the injector to spray the fuel in a more diffuse/fine spray to help atomisation. Sooo I think the wall finish is going to be vital to keep the mixture off the walls.



Cheers

Moose

[AudioMan]

wow, you actually answered all my questions fully. Very much appreciated. I am still very interested. You sound like you researched this alot. I just started today. I did notice that the manufactures do keep the injectors near the butterfly, and now i understand the reason.
Just wondering, what size injectors does the 929 have? i have installed a few ITBs (like 2 of them), but i never payed much attention to their design. mainly because i am not much of a n/a guy, i like boost.

Let all of us know how it turns out.

[DOG]

Have you ever considered drilling air bleed holes in the throttle plates. Some carbs use to use them to control idle. Not sure if it would work though on fuel injection.

[Moose]

AudioMan ...

I have NO idea what size the CBR injectors are ... I have this VERY question out on various car and bike boards ... with no definitive answer.

I really need to know this as 240cc is about the minimum I can run with my setup without resorting to way high Fuel pressure or big injector duty cycles

I plan to take the 929 injectors out and get them flowed in the next week or so ....I will know for sure WHAT there flow rating is....

There is a BUNCH of threads on HondaTech on ITB's ... there is a bunc-o-information out there .. finding can be a bitch though :)

HondaDog ... no I have not considered controlling idle in that way ... the current system works well for the CBR .. why F**k with it :) How-ever I have thought about moving the vacuum pickup points to original Z6 injector locations (epoxying in new vacuum nipples) and using the IACV to feed "bleed" air into the runners (via the ITB vacuum points) to increase idle under ECU control.

Cheers

Moose

[DOG]

It sounds like you been thinking on this one long and hard. much respect. I think your solution will work well. I think the cbr's inj holes would be better, but you are more knowledgable than I am at this.

[hatchbackkid54]

Some intake manifold comparison pics: http://www.slebidia.addr.com/images/intakes/

I hope to actually get a decent work area setup soon so I can fab up a few ZC and SOHC manifolds. the A6 intake is the best one to use we ported and polished one and ran it on our flow bench and it was beter then any of the outher intakes that you have on your list by far :shock:

[AudioMan]

as for the injector sizing i was thinking about it for a while and here is what i came up with.

A motor is a motor right?
What seperates the 929 motor from a d16?
They both are 4 cylinder and both have close to the same power output.
So why can injector sizing be done the same way?
IF you put 130hp (y8) into the injector formula, for a 4 cylinder engine you get 213cc at 80% duty.
well, the 929 puts out about 140hp. put this in the formula and you get 230cc at 80% duty.

we all know that is not gonna run the injectors at 80% duty that is why the y8 has 240cc injectors in it, thats about 70% duty.

Now if the cbr runs its injectors at 70% duty that would be about 260cc.

This is just a theory, but they could not be less then 230cc

[Moose]

Audioman,

Yup I did a similar calulation and I figure that the CBR929 injectors SHOULD be arround 240cc ... hopefully bigger as the motorcycle motor revs higher and longer thus should need more fuel

BUT I with NO difinitive answer I am going to flow them ... it is cheap ... around $20ea ... I know people have just slapped them on and run ... but it is worth it for peice of mind ... and i am kind interested anyways

Cheers

Moose

[AudioMan]

when you do flow them, please posts teh results, it will be very much appreciated.

[Moose]

Of Course !!!!! ...

:)


Moose

[DOHCDX]

SICK. moose, how much did the maching cost on that manifold? i need that exact setup, any idea if your machining hookup would be willing to do it again? costs?

i'm dead serious about this project, you have only proven to me that it is going to work

[Moose]

DOHCDX...

I used Graeme, the Owner/Machinist of
Canadian Cylinder Head Technologies
(416) 630-0854
4479 Chesswood Drive,
Toronoto, ON
Canada
M3J 2C3

I am sure he would be willing to do another one .. however he will require the ITB's to allow him to align the new runners properly (he does not have a jig, mine was a one-off). I left mine with him for a couple of weeks over xmas ...

I paid $200USD ... which on the surface seems a bit much for just some welding and some Aluninmum pipe ... however,he portmatched the IM to a Y8 Gasket, cleaned up and properly finished the inner welds, cleaned up and put a 60 grit finish on the interior and and welded up a new coolant passage with a 3/8 NPT fitting. So considering the quality of the finished piece I feel it was worth it.

It is a fairly easy project ... and It may prove a bit difficult for you get it done thru him (crossing the border etc) ... It may be easier to get it done locally if you can find a good shop. At the very least you can get the pipes bent and welded up and you can do the finish work yourself.

Cheers

Moose

[redzcstandardhatch]

moose, i would be interested in buying a re-curved map sensor from the place your getting yours, if it works well. do you have a price as to what thats gonna run you? i would actually be more than interested, i WOULD buy one for my ITB setup.

[Moose]

RedZCstandardhatch..

My ITB setup is the test car for the prototype Map sensor ... which is currently not shipping. Once we test it and finalise the design I will post the info for it.

Cheers

Moose

[redzcstandardhatch]

excellent. post up how it works, and i'll buy one, especially if it works well. currently my car is going to be tuned with ghettodyne, i might switch to turbo-edit, not sure.....it really doesnt matter too much for NA, but a recurved map would help things out a lot i believe. i just dont want the thing dumping fuel in while i'm going down the highway at half-throttle because it doesnt see much vacuum. that would suck, i LOVE cruisin the highway, thats what i do.

[DOG]

Great info you guys. Keep it up! I love coming in here seeing whats going on with your projects.
Dog

[DOG]

Looks like the itb stickies I posted in NA got deleted during an upgrade so I posted the information from a copy I made and posted on Dserieshonda. The post was originally by redzcstandardhatch here at D-series.org.

http://dserieshonda.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=182

[Moose]

More Teaser Pics :P

I started the mockup process on a spare Z6 long block ... I figured out the Throttle cable ... and I know how I want to run the Coolant lines ... so I am off to the Autoparts store tommorow to pickup some vacuum and coolant lines plus some asssorted fittings ..

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aar.sized.jpg

I love this picture ... they look so friggen MEAN !!!

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aaq.sized.jpg

This was an interesting find. The picture below shows two vacuum ports on Cylinder 1 (and 4) The left one is the vacuum port for the Map sensor, the right port is for the FPR. Only cylinder 1 and 4 have taps for the FPR, 2 and 3 have only taps for the MAP.

The Map Port(s) have much smaller orifices ... the picture does not show how much smaller the orifice actually is. I would assume that the small orifice is to allow better metering for the MAP sensor.

I was going to couple all the vacuum lines toether in a vacuum manifold to feed the FPR, ITB's, and Brake booster, BUT because Honda saw fit to searate the MAP from FPR and to size the orifices differently I think I will leave it the way it is and add 4 vaccum ports where the Stock Z6 injectors used to be and use the vac manifold to fed this vacuum to the brake booster.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aat.jpg


Cheers
Moose

[DOG]

Nice pics. They look mean. You just gave me a good idea for the injector bosses on my carbed version. I wasnt going to use a fuel injected manifold but I think I will now, and like you I can use the injector bosses for Vac. and just mount fittings in there.

[Moose]

Further Updates ...

I installed some 3/8 hose nipples in the old Z6 injector locations ... Once the epoxy has setup I will cut and run the Vacuum lines, and clean up the inside of the manifold where the nipples poke thru.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aaw.sized.jpg

I will probably use this Vacuum manifold to couple all the vacuum sources together and send them to the Brake booster.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aao.sized.jpg

Then I started mocking up the wiring harness. I started splitting the harness apart so I can re-locate the sensor connectors. Once separated the only sensor I had to extend is the TPS as it is on the opposite end of the IM from the stock Z6 location. Everything else will work. I just have to splice in the OBD-2 injector clips, solder everything up

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aax.sized.jpg

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aay.sized.jpg

I ended up using a TPS plug and wiring from a old JDM harness that I ripped apart for spares ... spares are good !!!

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aav.sized.jpg


Just for fun .... I opened the throttles when I took the picture

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aaz.sized.jpg

I am off to Miami and Tahoe on Business ...so the project is on hold for a couple of weeks ... well At least I am heading south to warmer weather.


Cheers

Moose

[DOHCDX]

great pics moose, i'm curious to know what you did to the throttle cable to get it to work. just pull the extra cable inside the car?

[Moose]

DOHCDX ...

I measured the "slack" between the Z6 TB throttle "spool" and the throttle cable bracket ... then I bent and formed the CBR throttle cable bracket so that it was the same distance from the TB "spool".

The Excess throttle cable will be routed as best as possible in the engine compartment.

Cheers

Moose

[1cam]

damn im speechless, great info and pics, moose you are my hero :P

[DOHCDX]

a TON of great info can be found here

http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=775280

[crxmotorsports]

Here is a pictoral outline of my "homemade" CBR 954rr throttles on a D15b2 Built specifically for SCCA Solo2 E-Prepared class rules. They have been operational for about a month and have been dyno tuned. The engine is making +100hp/liter with almost no tuning. There is still much more to be found with different runner lengths, trumpet shapes, and header/exhaust configurations. Hopefully a Bisimoto header will find its way into the engine compartment soon.....

[soccaian]

the beginnings of my ITB set up:

http://img2.photobucket.com/albums/v111/soccaian/IMAG0026.jpg

http://img2.photobucket.com/albums/v111/soccaian/IMAG0025.jpg

i'm going to cut down the y7 manifold and either weld in custom runners, or just use the stock ones as the spacing ends up being dead on about 2 or so inches away from the flange.

http://img2.photobucket.com/albums/v111/soccaian/IMAG0028.jpg
http://img2.photobucket.com/albums/v111/soccaian/IMAG0029.jpg
they are cbr 600 tb... the diameter is 38mm just behind the butterflies.. the y7 manifold has a width of 39 mm, but only a height on either side of the injector of ~32mm.... so i figure they ought to be sufficient in size.
i'm just going to use the stock injectors in the stock locations. i could make the stock injectors work in the gsxr fuel rail, but i am unsure of how that will affect injector timing, etc. i figure stock location will work just fine. UNLESS someone can show me if it will be beneficial to put them in the GSXR location.

[DOG]

Wow. Looks like some great work to me guys.

[stevel]

as for the injector sizing i was thinking about it for a while and here is what i came up with.

A motor is a motor right?
What seperates the 929 motor from a d16?
They both are 4 cylinder and both have close to the same power output.
So why can injector sizing be done the same way?
IF you put 130hp (y8) into the injector formula, for a 4 cylinder engine you get 213cc at 80% duty.
well, the 929 puts out about 140hp. put this in the formula and you get 230cc at 80% duty.

we all know that is not gonna run the injectors at 80% duty that is why the y8 has 240cc injectors in it, thats about 70% duty.

Now if the cbr runs its injectors at 70% duty that would be about 260cc.

This is just a theory, but they could not be less then 230cc
the one thing you're forgetting here is fuel pressure. Honda could use a much smaller injector on the bike because of the high fuel pressure that they run. I know the CBR 954RR stock fuel pressure is about 52 psi, whereas the stock d16z6 is low 30's I believe. Don't forget those same 240cc injectors (from the d16z6) are used on the B series engines. The spray pattern might be different but the flow rating is the same. Honda seems to run the injectors at a fuel pressure that puts them really close to 100% duty cycle at redline for full load. For example the b16 fuel pressure is 38psi , b18c1 is 42 and b18c5 is 45 (i'm pretty sure those are all right, not 100% on the ITR motor). The duty cycles are all pretty much the same, just different pressures. Honda must have realized a benefit to doing this because they do it across the board on the cars.

The 954RR motor has such different characterisistics who knows what flow rating they are. The high rpm's that the motor runs at they might need a really high fuel pressure because of the high pistons speeds and make them a really small pulse width (so pushing out more fuel in a smaller time). How that relationship rates to what the flow rating might be I'm not sure. So, it's all a mystery for now. At any rate I'm gonna try them out and see how they work. I'm betting if they can handle the 140hp bike motor they'll easily handle a d16z6.

s

[stevel]

So now I am in the process of figuring out the vacuum and coolant routing, and what I am going to do with the Injectors. I have three choices, Highflow CBR inj from RC, Modified Prelude injectors in the stock CBR location, or Prelude injectors in the Z6 stock location.
I'm pretty sure stock honda injectors for the car will just drop into place, no mods needed. I'll have to double check but I thought someone did that. For my project I'm going to put the injectors in the stock bike location. I guess the tradeoff is idle and high rpm power. At the stock d16z6 mani location they are easy to get to idle lower but you might suffer some high rpm power. In the stock bike location I guess idle gets tricky but that location is much better for high rpm flow. This is just what I've heard and is hearsay, in my mind til I try it for myself, so take it with a grain of salt.




Once that is done ... the tunning becomes the issue. I think i may have resolved the low vacuum issue and how it impacts tunning and the A/F maps. A local tuner is building a custom re-curved Map sensor (he builds Turbo Maps) for low vacuum situations.
please elaborate on this? So what's it going to do? You're gonna get a custom map sensor that will put out a similar voltage at idle as the car map sensor but this re-curved sensor will put out the same voltage but with less vacuum needed for idle. Seems pretty complicated to get it right. You could really mess up the map readings you're going to get. Changing the value at idle could have a big effect on what you get at WOT. Gonna have to do some testing to make sure you didn't make it worse.


This hopefully will allow me to tune properly using Hondata, with out having to resort to TPS only tunning below 5k.
From the people that I have talked to that have tuned ITB's if you do the vac canister like you are and T all 4 together you won't have a big issue getting good vac readings. As far as TPS tuning with hondata it's not possible anyways. Hondata only allows tuning based on map readings. That's why a lot of people like the AEM, it allows TPS tuning.

steve

[Moose]

SteveL

The Z6 injectors will fit in the CBR locations BUT the Z6 injectors are taller, so the fuel rail sits higher ... you have to use washers/spacers to allow you to bolt the fuel rail down

Difference in height between the CBR and Z6 injectors

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/abj.sized.jpg

Z6 injectors installed in the CBR locations

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/abl.sized.jpg

Z6 injectors in place with CBR fuel rail

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/abn.sized.jpg


Here is a close-up of the Fuel rail and mounting points

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/abm.sized.jpg


Vacuum logs ... there is a lot of conflicting info on wether or not a log is required .... I decided not to run a log ... I figured If I had problems I would just add a vacuum canister after the fact. I ended up epoxying in some barrbed nipples and then I teed the lines together ... this vacuum source will feed the Brake Booster .... the OE CBR vacuum lines will feed the MAP and FPR. I decided to use the OE CBR vacuum ports for the MAP because they have a smalled orifice ...I suspect to provide a more accurate (finer) Map reading

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/aba.sized.jpg



http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/CBR-929-ITB-project/abe.sized.jpg


Re-curved MAP ...
The MUCH lower vacuum that the ITB's provide EVEN with a Vacuum log causes the MAP to read wrong (voltage range is smaller) ... It is similar to how a huge cam causes tunnning and idle issues.
When you start hacking the ECU (Hondata etc) look-up tables, the lower vacuum and reduced voltage range of the MAP re-distributes the A/F tables, causing a reduced tuning resolution in the higher RPM bands. This make tuning difficult, so I asked a local tuner to create a custom map sensor that compensates for the lower vacuum by allowing the MAP sensor to output a normal range of voltages. This MAP is similar (but opposite in correction) to a Boost (2 or 3 bar) Map sensor. I hope that made sense


Cheers

Moose

[Rexinre]

I must say, this is OUTSTANDING. It makes me wanna do a carb set up! Nice work!

[Dirk-EG]

I might need that special MAP sensor too, depends on what DOHCDX made from his ITB's.. Looking very, very good i must say.. keep up the write up..

[DOHCDX]

you don't need to use a re-calibrated MAP. compensate for the reduced vacuum when tuning by leaning out fuel.

[Dirk-EG]

you don't need to use a re-calibrated MAP. compensate for the reduced vacuum when tuning by leaning out fuel.

So I understand from a PM from you a while back.. still laying on the shelf... will be put to good use sooner or later..

[N1hatch]

Those ITB look really great !! any dyno numbers??

[flatfourfan]

Anyone finish off any projects???

[DOG]

Im starting on a new set. Just had this y8 auto intake manifold cut down and now I have to find someone to weld some short runners on it.

[slebidia]

Hopefully I'll get to my Busa/ZC ITB project this year. I didn't have the means to properly tune mine last time. The Zdyne just couldn't cut it.

[DOG]

By the way, I have an extra y7 intake manifold. The plenum has been cut off where it meets the runners. If someone needs a flange for ITB's all you would have to do is cut the runners off and weld some straight tubes. $15 shipped.

[MI KENT]

can i use my d15b8 mani for a custom itb setup?

[Fooshitinkinjssomethingorother]

Man, this thread needs more love. :lol: I can't get enough of it. Once someone gets their project done the need to do a full write-up detailing what parts were used, how certain engine bits were re-routed and accounted for, etc. Oh yeah, and of course pics and VIDS.

Also, this guy on H/T sells custom made flanges with welded runners for ~$160.
link (http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=946633)

EDIT: the guy above will need an IM gasket for your application for D-series motors.

Keep the pics coming guys! This will deff be going on my NA build. :thumbsup:

[flatfourfan]

I found out this weekend that the local model 2.0 litre 4 cylinder 20v toyota corolla came out with stock ITB's.......will see if I can get some pictures of that to post.

[sockVTECHy0!]

I found out this weekend that the local model 2.0 litre 4 cylinder 20v toyota corolla came out with stock ITB's.......will see if I can get some pictures of that to post.well, i have been having some communication with another member and the idea came up that e30 m3 uses ITB's, and, this said, we might have a solution for the missing IACV issue that plagues all Honda ITB setups. I am not suggesting using e30 ITB's incase one was to misunderstand, i am simply saying that since it seems the e30 m3 uses a remote iacv, we need to study that setup further and also study the ranges of the bimmer iacv to see if the ranges are compatible, or could be manipulated with some added resistance etc...

[Fooshitinkinjssomethingorother]

Here's a nice site that has a lot of cycle graveyards nation-wide

http://www.used-motorcycle-parts.org/directory.php

[Fooshitinkinjssomethingorother]

Someone earlier was asking about the flow rate for the 929 injectors. I wasn't able to find the numbers on those, but the 954 injectors are 240cc. Don't know if the two are interchangeable, but it's a start.

[AgentJam]

this thread is the bomb...built and i were talking about itb's a few nights back. The more i think about it the more i want to try it.

Does anyone have any solid dyno "before & after" data?

Any dyno results (and i mean full plots not just peak #'s) i'd like to know the runner length and runner diameter as well.

A lot of you guys have seen builthatch and i's results, i'd like to still keep my redline below 8k for sure and retain decent braking.

I think with the crower 3 cam's duration/lift the itb's would just rock! Keep it coming guys i'm liking the info :-)

Vince

[DOG]

I just bought a set of ITB's from kommon_sense. They should be here sometime next week. I got some pictures from him I will post and When I start to get my hands dirty with the project I will post some new pics. Hopefully vtecnitrocrx will weld up some new runners on IM flange for me.

[slebidia]

It's really not that car to build your own flange. If you have to weld anyways.....

[Moose]

Someone earlier was asking about the flow rate for the 929 injectors. I wasn't able to find the numbers on those, but the 954 injectors are 240cc. Don't know if the two are interchangeable, but it's a start.

According to Russ at RC ... the CBR 929 injectors are 240cc as well ....

The big difference between the two is that the 929's have 4 orifices and the 954's have 9 I beleive.

Both are saturated.

Cheers

Moose

[DOG]

These are the ITB's I am buying from Kommon_sense. Off of a CBR600RR.

[Fooshitinkinjssomethingorother]

Lookin good DOG. I've been calling arond to junkyards near me to see waht they can scrounge up. No one's called back yet, but i'm in no rush. I have to finish my build first. :twisted:

[DOG]

Yeah these things take time. Most of it is spent looking for the parts to put everything together for a decent price.

[jdmlife]

http://www.westkyimports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298&page=1&pp=10

im bout 50% the way through. i already made a vaccum tree. i bout have the TPS done. just need to slap on the TWM Air Horns and hondata and ill be vroom vroom.:P 100% fitment and the cylinders are honed.. that me at the bottom. did all the work myself incuding the fab. and welding

[Fooshitinkinjssomethingorother]

Just remembered something, so those of us with D16a1s, we don't have IACV, we have EACV. Is there any difference between the two? Or is it the same system just renamed?

[DOG]

I always thought they were the same thing just renamed for some reason.

[DOG]

http://www.westkyimports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298&page=1&pp=10

im bout 50% the way through. i already made a vaccum tree. i bout have the TPS done. just need to slap on the TWM Air Horns and hondata and ill be vroom vroom.:P 100% fitment and the cylinders are honed.. that me at the bottom. did all the work myself incuding the fab. and welding

Looking good!

[bambooseven]

HondaTuning article on ITB's by Bob Hernandez

If you are going to scan and post my article, at least give me the credit for it ;-)

The ITB's are still on my car and running relatively well. The spikey dyno graphs have been smoothed out to a clean 130whp which is pretty respectable IMO. Part throttle needs some more tuning, with a more applicable engine management system (I.E. Alpha-N, TPS based maps, maybe 3-axis maps). The car drives great, I just can't tune the rich out of decelleration/engine-braking. The car shoots fire out of the tailpipe on tip in post-decell 8). All in all it has been a great project.

Check out Honda Tuning Magazine in the future for more D-Series fun. We did a mini-me story in the march issue which should be on the shelves about now. I have some other things in the works that'll tickle your fancies (I hope)

Bambooseven
AKA
Drü Barrios

[DOG]

Sorry I just realized Bob Hernandez did the Photography. I apologize for ther mix-up.

[isbluesmokebad?]

here's a pic of my itb project. doesnt look like ive gotten very far but its all pretty much designed, i just gotta spend a couple more hours machining some stuff to complete it. i used 02 gsxr 600 itb's because i got them cheap and they are able to be split up. i made some 4mm aluminum spacersto go between the tb's so they line up with the ports on the head and so i can modify the stock civic fuel rail to fit. all i had to do was bend out the tabs that are used for syncronization so they will reach to the next tb. i also made some press fit aluminum plugs to plug up the holes that were from the choke butterflys. the aluminum stock sitting there is going to be used to make my homemade intake manifold. i found it easier to do this than to try and modify a stock manifold to work. it will also look alot cleaner and port match alot smoother. also, im using the stock civic injectors because i feel they are more than enough for any engine under 200hp and i dont really wanna deal with any headaches of trying to tune it for different injectors. also, what programs are you guys going to use to tune yours? a friend of mine suggested chrome because they came out with a new plugin that makes it easier to tune itb's.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/danielwilcox/itbs.jpg

[OniFactor]

random question.. would it be okay to either weld the intake runners, on the manifold, at an angle, so i can get the ITBS more vertical? or perhaps use a elbow, down at the block, so that i can achieve the same thing? i'm helping a friend set up some ITBs for his ride, but his car doesn't have enough room between the engine and firewall to do it straight back, and we're tring to find alternatives

[isbluesmokebad?]

random question.. would it be okay to either weld the intake runners, on the manifold, at an angle, so i can get the ITBS more vertical? or perhaps use a elbow, down at the block, so that i can achieve the same thing? i'm helping a friend set up some ITBs for his ride, but his car doesn't have enough room between the engine and firewall to do it straight back, and we're tring to find alternatives
i would assume it would be ok as long as it was a smooth transition and didnt constrict the flow. im going to angle mine up a few degrees so that any excess gas from the injectors doesnt run out into my air filter or down my vacuum lines while the car is parked

[eksleeper]

Here are my itbs. They are off of a cbr600f4i. Mounted on an 90 lx intake manifold. I have everything made and ready and should be on this weekend. Ill have dyno graphs shortly also.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNzc3NDA2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNzc3NDA3NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[DOG]

Nice. What did you do about the water outlet on the manifold? Did you put a Brass fitting or something? I like the fact that the b2 manifold has the map sensor there on the runner.

[eksleeper]

Nice. What did you do about the water outlet on the manifold? Did you put a Brass fitting or something? I like the fact that the b2 manifold has the map sensor there on the runner.
Yeah it has a fitting over it. Ill have it installed saturday. Can't wait

[DOG]

What is everyone doing with the IACV? I'll be using a remote IACV, but still figuring out where to run hoses. Anyone trying longer runners? Different placement of injectors? Anyone try the motorcycle injectors in the stock Dseries flange location?

[eksleeper]

What is everyone doing with the IACV? I'll be using a remote IACV, but still figuring out where to run hoses. Anyone trying longer runners? Different placement of injectors? Anyone try the motorcycle injectors in the stock Dseries flange location?
I have a vacuum log i could use for mine but my iacv is bad right now so it wouldnt even matter. I wont worry about it until i get a new one. I will be getting different size runners with different bends in them to see what they do. My mom works at a machine shop and will be able to make me some aluminum runners. Ill let you know tomorrow on how the install went.

[DOG]

Ive got an extra if you want it. Its untested, but it might save you a few bucks.

[Fooshitinkinjssomethingorother]

What is everyone doing with the IACV? I'll be using a remote IACV, but still figuring out where to run hoses. Anyone trying longer runners? Different placement of injectors? Anyone try the motorcycle injectors in the stock Dseries flange location?

I think we agreed that putting the injectors in the stock location would do more bad than good. Having them farther away from the head allows for better fuel atomization to give a better bang.

How did you rig up that remote IACV? Maybe a little how-to or something. :TU:

[AgentJam]

What is everyone doing with the IACV? I'll be using a remote IACV, but still figuring out where to run hoses. Anyone trying longer runners? Different placement of injectors? Anyone try the motorcycle injectors in the stock Dseries flange location?

You sure a remote IACV will work? There will be a lot of positive/negative pressure in those lines as the IACV opens/closes...it def wont work as well as stock.

Not knocking the idea, just hoping you have some luck with it...i don't know of anyone who has done this.

Vince

[DOG]

You sure a remote IACV will work? There will be a lot of positive/negative pressure in those lines as the IACV opens/closes...it def wont work as well as stock.

Not knocking the idea, just hoping you have some luck with it...i don't know of anyone who has done this.

Vince

Yes it should work. I used one like this with an auto y8 intake manifold and it worked fine, but using it with ITB's is another question. Ill hope for the best and expect the worst.

[DOG]

I think we agreed that putting the injectors in the stock location would do more bad than good. Having them farther away from the head allows for better fuel atomization to give a better bang.

How did you rig up that remote IACV? Maybe a little how-to or something. :TU:

My concern about placement of the injectors is over fuel atomization vs. puddling. I want to make the runners longer, if possible using a "S" shape. If I put the injectors further up the runners chances are I will have a big problem with the gas puddling.

[DOG]

After looking at the HT article, and seeing how the vac log was done, I was wondering why not just use the fuel rail as a vac log? You could run brass fittings out of the oem inj. location, and fittings out of the fuel rail's inj. holes. Connect the corresponding inj. holes/fittings with hoses to the fuel rail. Modify the fuel line inlet to be used for the brake booster. Take off the fpr and use it for the IAT or MAP. What do you think? too far gone?

[pm7power]

why can't the itb's be welded to the manifold why use those rubber copllings?

[flatfourfan]

I'd rather try and make a flange that they can bolt to........don't see welding as a good idea, just incase one has to be removed for some or other reason.

[Fooshitinkinjssomethingorother]

and so it begins......

http://students.kennesaw.edu/~tmh2913/pics/100_0507.jpg

Now I just gotta figure out what all the little nipples are for, and then slice & dice it :lol: