gay marriage? [Archive]

makku

11-09-2004, 05:17 AM

i really could care less if gay people are "married"... I support civil unions for them.

But what I don't understand is that in SOME churches, they can get married already. Of course, they can't get legally recognized as that. But if civil unions become legal, then they get "married" in their church and basically have the same rights as a married couple legally. So what's the difference?

If the gov't were to suddenly say it's ok for gay people to get married, that doesn't mean that priests and ministers are obligated to marry them. If it's still a church that doesn't believe in gay marriage, they still don't have to marry them. It will be left to the Elvis weddings in Vegas :)

People are getting all bent out of shape over a word like marriage when the gov't has no control over the religious/spiritual part of marriage. Just the legal aspects which many people seem to support... just by another term, civil unions.

Eh, not an important issue to me...

jb2178

11-09-2004, 06:22 AM

save a civic

11-09-2004, 08:36 AM

-first of all, chasloa if this forum was your idea then pos rep for you! great idea man.... :werd:

Equal rights for all, thats what our country is built upon....

-while you are right, you also must not ignore the fact that we were founded as a "christian/catholic" based nation. i see no coincidence that we are the most successful nation to date by including God in our laws. many parts of our system were based on the bible and i also believe that it is important to note how things have changed in america since we've begun to take God and his law out ouf the picture. in the 50's we had WAY lower crime rates; public snipers, child molestation etc... but we have proven recently that we will tolerate more than we once did. back then we had hold of our balls, now we let men prance around in the streets in a tu-tu because we dont want to offend them. back then you would get your fucken ass beat by the next door neighbor's kid and the rest of the neighborhood would love him for it. and you had better believe i will raise my kids to do the same.
-if we allow gay marriages, soon will follow those who will fight for the "right" to marry minors, sell child pornography, tolerate beastiality and God only knows what else. do you believe the last areas of the bible to be coincidene with what is now happening? you can look up on the internet how they found the ark on mount zion way in the clouds. how did it get up there? (the flood) how has israel stay intact after constant attack being so small? (Jesus's chosen) cloning? (in Revalations; playing God's role) and men sleeping with men? (bible calls it detestable and much more in Romans) if you believe the bible, you may want to think twice about what we are allowing. i feel condemned staning back and watching someone get their ass kicked, so i always (whether or not i know i will get my ass kicked) jump in and defend the helpless because i know i must do what is right in my own eyes. maybe i am different in that i was raised not to stand by and watch things happen.
-okay im not a preacher or out to spread the word! dont get me wrong, i know thats another subject, but: I THINK WERE PLAYING WITH FIRE here. do you want your children to grow up believeing that a homosexual relationship is okay? what will the next thing be? i do not intend to offend anyone in here, but this is a serious adult discussion. i truly ask you open-mindedly... we all have our opinions.

chasloa

11-09-2004, 09:12 AM

great post save a civic... really makes you think

Bizzar

11-09-2004, 09:42 AM

I say yes to gay marriage. Let them marry so they will SHUT THE HELL UP about it already. Then they will be in the same boat as the rest of the nation and rethink marriage after they take into consideration of divorce. Most gay male couples make decent money and combined will raise them into a higher tax bracket. HAH whos laughing now. women on the other hand....well those I just dont get, why do they have to be so damn manly and all wear those fugly shoes and have that half feathered short,long hair wtf is with that. Cant they be two normal women who like to lick twat? Also more gay couples means less offspring. This country is so over populated with stupid people as it is more power to the queers!

edit: I'm a father of 2 girls and though this may sound wrong but I could definatly deal with either one of my daughters being gay. However, if I had a son theres no way in hell I could accept him to turn out gay. Is that wrong? lol.

makku

11-09-2004, 09:47 AM

honestly, i don't think it's that bad. If homosexuality is indeed genetic, then by allowing gayness to be out in the open, we can breed it out of the population. They won't be making babies with anyone else, will they? Would you rather oppress homosexuals to the point where they marry straight, make a family, and then destroy their family when their feelings for being gay become too strong?

HOWEVER, if single people can't adopt, then gay couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt either. That's where I make my line in the sand against homosexuality.

MyblkVTEC

11-09-2004, 09:50 AM

a lot of nice opinions, I kind of agree with everyone, Im just leaning against it still....

modsHXcivi

11-09-2004, 09:51 AM

i really dont give 2 shits if your gay and what to be married...if your in to packing fudge go for it.......but i on the other hand like a women to tickle my pickle.

Rexinre

11-09-2004, 10:31 AM

I dono how I feel about it. On one hand Gay marriage is an oxymoron. On the other hand who cares if they want to get married? I can't decide, I will have to think on this one for a little while.

green_hornet_96

11-09-2004, 10:34 AM

I didn't care one way or another for a long time. All it took was one guy hitting on me, made me sick for a week.

Man+Woman=Marriage. This has been this way for thousands of years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Man+Man/Woman+Woman=roommates. What they do in their own time is their business, but their activities should not let the couple be recognized as a marriage. Call it something else, but it sure isn't marriage. As for adoption, such a household would be incredibly confusing to a young child when faced with peers' homes, and may cause even more problems once the child reaches adolescence.

If homosexuality is genetic, and since homosexual couples aren't capable of having children together naturally, why the heck are they still here? It seems that trait would have been wiped out of the gene pool by now.

0-0-7

11-09-2004, 10:37 AM

Equal rights for all.

makku

11-09-2004, 10:47 AM

If homosexuality is genetic, and since homosexual couples aren't capable of having children together naturally, why the heck are they still here? It seems that trait would have been wiped out of the gene pool by now.

Cause they haven't been able to be openly homosexual for a long time. Forced to live normal lives.

I think that a lot of them are genetic and some are by choice. I mean, in really OLD, OLD, OLD days, homosexuality was encouraged among armies so that

1) the men would be happy
2) they fight like madmen to protect each other (their boyfriends)

That had to have been by choice. Plus, being flaming gay is definitely a choice. Ugh, I can't stand flamers. Normal gay people are cool, I have no problem with that... let them do whatever they want.

green_hornet_96

11-09-2004, 10:50 AM

Ugh, I can't stand flamers. Normal gay people are cool, I have no problem with that... let them do whatever they want.
Amen to that!

cation

11-09-2004, 10:56 AM

It is my opinion that both sides need to come to some sort of compromise. On one hand you have the gays saying that they have the right to be married and have the same social/government status as a heterosexual couple would. On the other you have people like me that think that marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman. My argument is why do the gays have to call it a marriage? There is no way that God will condone the marriage between two males or two females, no matter how the gays choose to interpret the Bible. I have no problem with gay people wanting to be together, because that's their choice and they should have that right, but don't call it marriage...because it isn't one! Let the gays have civil unions under which they will have the same treatment as a traditional married couple, but just don't call it a marriage!!!! Seems simple to me for both sides to compromise like this, but I'm sure opinions will differ.

Civil union-----> yes
Marriage------> hell no!

save a civic

11-09-2004, 12:41 PM

I have no problem with gay people wanting to be together, because that's their choice and they should have that right, but don't call it marriage...because it isn't one!

i agree here.

Gay marriage is an oxymoron

it sure is...

edit: I'm a father of 2 girls and though this may sound wrong but I could definatly deal with either one of my daughters being gay. However, if I had a son theres no way in hell I could accept him to turn out gay. Is that wrong? lol.

yes. that would be unfair to him. (neither should be tolerated. what will follow?) i'm sure you are a better father than that inside.

I mean, in really OLD, OLD, OLD days, homosexuality was encouraged among armies so thatso that

1) the men would be happy
2) they fight like madmen to protect each other (their boyfriends)

i'd rather die....

bspeed

11-09-2004, 01:01 PM

Both of the candidates were/are against the idea of homosexual marriage.
Marriage as far as I have always known is the idea of uniting a man and women.
It is my feeling that any two people old enough to be tried as an adult should be allowed to participate in a civil union wherein all the responsiblilties that are required of a marriage by law should be enforced, just as all rights should be allotted. There was a time in this country where the marriages of Black people were not recognized. As for the idea that this country was in a better place in the 50's that is because all we know is what was "the information North East West and South fit to print", There were massive anti-semite movements post WWII, the civil rights issue was just starting to boil-over, the leader of the FBI was a transvestite, who was the marine who shot those 12 students?, men were still alowed to beat their wives for not listening to them, Macarthyism was ruining peoples lives like a modern day Salem, Mass. The idea that life was better 'back in the day' is one that has been perpetuated generation after generation by folks who are uncomfortable with any change to their daily life, and have total disregard for the the real meaning of the preable of the Constitution. The idea that child-porn and beastiality and other diversions of humanity are by any means a new problem is silly. Face it, we live in the age of information and many things that were not brought to light for the masses has been presented and found niches on this medium especially. Life is a dynamic thing that will continue to evolve no matter how hard anyone fights it. Everyone deserves a fair shake in life, but the single most important idea to remember about equality, civil rights, and last not offending others...is this; Your civil rights end where the next human's begin. If what some other person chooses to do does not infringe on anyone elses own civil rights, unfortunately according to what the founders of our country wrote 228 years ago it is ok. Whether or not you believe that according to your chosen religion this is ok is not up for argument in our courts as a result, say we had a massive influx of the Hindu religion; would you agree or disagree that a new bill to make all beef products illegal? This is a very different situation and not a very likely one, but from a macro view you can see it is a religious motivated and not a civil rights issue.

Do I think there should be gay marriages? No I do not.. Do I think that every legal citizen of this great country should have the exact same rights AND responsibilities as their neighbors? Yes, yes I do.

Remember this one from grade school?
"...with liberty and justice for all."

makku

11-09-2004, 02:02 PM

well reasoned post... :TU:

makku

11-09-2004, 02:04 PM

i'd rather die....

i'm not saying it's good... just trying to prove that some homosexual acts are genetically driven and some are choice driven. The greeks and romans were pretty gay :)

save a civic

11-09-2004, 02:06 PM

It is my feeling that any two people old enough to be tried as an adult should be allowed to participate in a civil union wherein all the responsiblilties that are required of a marriage by law should be enforced, just as all rights should be allotted. There was a time in this country where the marriages of Black people were not recognized.

while you have a good point, you didnt get that my statement was derived by the backup of the bible. the bilble doesnt banish blacks from marrying and neither would i.

As for the idea that this country was in a better place in the 50's that is because all we know is what was "the information North East West and South fit to print", There were massive anti-semite movements post WWII, the civil rights issue was just starting to boil-over, the leader of the FBI was a transvestite, who was the marine who shot those 12 students?, men were still alowed to beat their wives for not listening to them, Macarthyism was ruining peoples lives like a modern day Salem, Mass. The idea that life was better 'back in the day' is one that has been perpetuated generation after generation by folks who are uncomfortable with any change to their daily life, and have total disregard for the the real meaning of the preable of the Constitution.

while this is sad, the constitution was as i said, founded on Christian/catholic beliefs whether anyone likes it or not. where do you think "in God we trust" came from?

The idea that child-porn and beastiality and other diversions of humanity are by any means a new problem is silly.

thats what my parents used to tell me about recognized (legally documented) homosexuality and cloning when i was a kid.

Everyone deserves a fair shake in life, but the single most important idea to remember about equality, civil rights, and last not offending others...is this; Your civil rights end where the next human's begin. If what some other person chooses to do does not infringe on anyone elses own civil rights, unfortunately according to what the founders of our country wrote 228 years ago it is ok.

how do i put this?... if you do something that is in conflict and yet add "in God we trust," that would be blasphemy according to the bible. do you think they did not know this? i doubt they foresaw homosexual marriage coming their way 228 years ago.

If what some other person chooses to do does not infringe on anyone elses own civil rights,

you gonna let me fuck your 13 year old neigbor if she likes it?

Whether or not you believe that according to your chosen religion this is ok is not up for argument in our courts as a result, say we had a massive influx of the Hindu religion; would you agree or disagree that a new bill to make all beef products illegal? This is a very different situation and not a very likely one, but from a macro view you can see it is a religious motivated and not a civil rights issue.

fist of all, it becomes a rights issue when they want the state to recognize it as a legal marriage. no one banned being gay, they are not allowing marriages. and i said founded on Christian beliefs. the answer to your question is no. if 80% of the population became gay tomorrow, we would still have been founded with Christian beliefs.

NO OFFENSE ANYONE!!! were all adults here, i shouldnt even half to say that... :jesus:

save a civic

11-09-2004, 02:08 PM

i'm not saying it's good... just trying to prove that some homosexual acts are genetically driven and some are choice driven. The greeks and romans were pretty gay :)

i bet that has something to do with why God made them fall (in the bible if you know it).

-and fuck yeah the 50's was a better time. at least you didnt have to be afraid of letting your kids play out in your front yard. you could trust your neighbors and somewhat even strangers. my dad kicked my fucking ass the first time i watched someone else get THEIR ass kicked. it was principle that he found biblically (not to sit by and watch your brother bear pain) i will teach my son the same way.

b-speed- gave you rep points for having the balls to state what you feel, even if i dont agree with a fucken thing you say. respectfully, -nate

makku

11-09-2004, 02:24 PM

ok, i know your argument is based on the fact that this country is founded on catholic beliefs... BUT

this would be a very sad world if we were to limit ourselves with an outdated set of ideas. YES, outdated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the men in the time of Noah and the ark have multiple wives? Of course, that didn't happen so much later on in the bible. Progression... each of the books in the bible were not written to be part of a BIBLE. They are all separate collections that were compiled into one book. There was even a big addendum/revision called the New Testament. Jews chose not to use this part, while Catholics/Christians did. Even the Mormons wrote a THIRD addition to the bible called the book of Mormon. The Muslims added their Koran (they use the old testament and part of the New Testament in some sense)...

All I'm saying is that the Bible is not static. It can change. You may believe it was written by God through various vessels (the authors), but it is still based on their interpretation of the "word". (Sorry if I sound sarcastic, I don't mean to be but I'm not religious...)

Oh, and God did not make the Greek and Roman civilizations fall. That's complete bunk IMO. Did God make the great Mayan civilization fall? No, but it's still a mystery... there are plenty of theories, but people haven't jumped to any radical conclusions like that. The greek and roman fall may have happened during biblical times but someone just wrote their theory as proof in the bible. (that's what I think)

Arachnid

11-09-2004, 02:31 PM

Arachnid

11-09-2004, 02:42 PM

ahah my friend had a gay roommate and he wasn't laughing. and he did support it until he was roomed with one.

save a civic

11-09-2004, 02:42 PM

YES, outdated. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the men in the time of Noah and the ark have multiple wives? Of course, that didn't happen so much later on in the bible. Progression... each of the books in the bible were not written to be part of a BIBLE. They are all separate collections that were compiled into one book. There was even a big addendum/revision called the New Testament.

you just answered your question sir.

All I'm saying is that the Bible is not static. It can change. You may believe it was written by God through various vessels (the authors), but it is still based on their interpretation of the "word".

well i dont know what to tell you.. you obviously dont read the bible b/c that's not what IT says.

(Sorry if I sound sarcastic, I don't mean to be but I'm not religious...)

none taken dude makku.

Oh, and God did not make the Greek and Roman civilizations fall. That's complete bunk IMO.

again, that's not what the bible says

Did God make the great Mayan civilization fall? No, but it's still a mystery... there are plenty of theories, but people haven't jumped to any radical conclusions like that. The greek and roman fall may have happened during biblical times but someone just wrote their theory as proof in the bible. (that's what I think)

see previous 2 statements...

-makku, you have to understand: some of us believe in what the bible says because of one reason or another. i, because i have been within an inch of losing my life well more than a few times. i was the sole person that did not get shot in the Robotek Motorsports shooting (yes, i'm that nate), i had an accord land on me without a jack, my wifes mercedes blew up last month taking down 2/3 of my home and i missed the explosion inmy face by .083 of a second according to the police video that my other mechanic neighbor just happened to be recording my swap with. (yes a mercedes motor swap, heh heh. i will try to post a video of it if i can soon. i believe in God as much as i believe i'm realy alive. it's not that i hate gays, i just believe in God's laws. it may be outdated to you, but i believe in the bible and it says that only the two testaments are legit and Jesus will return before any after business.

save a civic

11-09-2004, 02:48 PM

species: can have viable offspring
gays: cannot have viable offspring

give up liking other men, it just wasn't meant to be. someday when it is, you guys can shoot my brains out. that's my thoughts, but i still say be gay and don't let me know about it. that shit is sick shit.

i didnt even want to get into this, but arachnid said it. gays cant reproduce a living being, only a man+woman. God made it that way. man can make up a human by using the dna codes and his own utensils, but it wont live unless it starts with already living cells. why cant he make it live from dead cells if the dna is the same? because God said in Genesis that a man will only be alive when "God breathes the breath of life into his nostrils." there is alot of biblical backup but i in no way expect anyone else to believe as i do. there is a good argument for both sides. i simply put my bible first for me. ;-)

makku

11-09-2004, 02:53 PM

modsHXcivi

11-09-2004, 02:54 PM

makku

11-09-2004, 03:00 PM

i think all straight men can agree that gay "acts" are pretty gross. I mean, if you are straight, besides getting your dick and other body parts cut off, what is the worst torture you could imagine? eh? Got your imaginations going you sicko's! ;)

mynameistin

11-09-2004, 03:15 PM

allow gay marriages, enough said...did i hear cheney's daughter is gay huh what was that? :D

ps. all you guys know you fucking love lesbians and or would love to get 2 women at the same time! :D any reason they cannot get married?
------------------------------------------------

on a serious note i see a lot of you belive in following god and the bible. now i do belive in god and my bestfriend (girl) her mother talks about it with me and i ask questions here and there but deep down inside sometimes i really wonder what its here for. at the moment it seems like people use it to keep themselves together and keep them on this so called track of life i guess. without religion it seems the whole world would fall apart. now to me that seems kind of sad you cant think for your ownself. not tryign to bash on any religious people at all but if you cant think without this helping hand i feel bad. example (i suck at these but hey ill try)

you and your boy are about to break into a house. ok so you go to break the window to get in. now a civilized person who has the correct morals to me should be like you know what thats wrong i cant do that b.c i wouldnt want someone doing it to me. but now i feel some people are like wait jesus wouldnt want me to do this. i cannot.

to me thats just like come on man err i wish we had a big confrence line so i could speak. its to hard to type. does anyone get my point or at all agree? i wont be offended if nobody sees it somewhat like i do. for any of you religious people please do enlighten me i really enjoy learning anything at all that im intrested i talk to my best friends mom about certain stuff liek this all the time. give me a VALID reason why gays shouldnt be allowed to get married BESIDES GOD/JESUS said thats not the right way to live? because you are grossed out by it? thats fine its not your thing. honestly if a gay guy started rubbing up on me id probably freak a little but my moms coworkers (3) when those guys come over for dinner they have to be the funniest motherfuckers ive ever been around adn they by no means bother me. they dont start talking about there sexual encounters and stuff with me b.c i dont care to here they just keep there grounds to them. sorry for the rant. ill type some more later

save a civic

11-09-2004, 03:17 PM

that's cool... everyone has their own beliefs. gotta respect it unless it's going to hurt me in some way (and it's not)

BTW, i wasn't sure about what the bible says... i was just going on what you said about "why god made them fall"

FYI, i was raised catholic and went through all the sacrements except for marriage, priesthood and death. I don't know exactly when I stopped believing but it happened pretty early on (maybe 3rd grade or something). So I know a little about the bible... went to fucking catholic night classes for 8 years!!!! worst time of my life :)

yeah, i was raised in a Christian home and my entire, and i mean entire family is either a pastor or missionary of some kind. i becam Christian myself just a year and a half ago. i ironically set out to prove it wrong for school paper and ended up like this. not what i was looking for either...

my last (hopefully for you) post on this matter is that it all adds up to one thing: you can believe what you want, you can fuck who you want (if they let you), and you can be a :fag: if you want, but if your asking us to recognize you in "holy matrimony" LEGALLY, then you will have to pass a bill my friend.

makku

11-09-2004, 03:31 PM

Rexinre

11-09-2004, 03:39 PM

Someone mentioned before that they should call "gay marriage" something else other then marriage. This would be a good thing.

Something I have formed my opinion on is gay couples should absolutely not (for obvious reasons) raise children... adopted or not!

modsHXcivi

11-09-2004, 04:52 PM

want to be gay and married fine but leave the kids alone ..there are enough fucked up kids in this world not to have to have gay parents

save a civic

11-09-2004, 04:53 PM

holy matrimony...

that's just it. The gov't has no business recognizing that. We should ALL have civil unions when you go to the courthouse for your certificate. If you want to be married, go to a church. The problem is... that distinction has been blurred over time.

you are right, but they also "have no business" saying "in God we trust" but redundantly we were founded Christian. i meant "holy matrimony" in my (and God's) eyes makku. you are correct in your eyes, i know what you mean... long subjet huh?

Someone mentioned before that they should call "gay marriage" something else other then marriage

you are right, but i hope it never passes. i dont want my kids to think it's okay while i preach them the bible in my other hand.

Top Aussie

11-09-2004, 06:12 PM

no from me, gay guys make m uneasy.

i was with my girl at the shop at the other day and this gay guy with his boyfriend or whatever kept staring at me..... yuck man.

ps am i narrow minded? lol

98DoHcKiller

11-09-2004, 06:25 PM

i really dont care, but we are built upon are four fathers and they were against it, but that was then this is now, i really dont care.

chasloa

11-09-2004, 06:41 PM

haha our 4 fathers

Honda4VW

11-09-2004, 06:42 PM

hehe

fore-fathers :)

ryan89crx

11-10-2004, 12:02 AM

i think save a civic has provided some of the best arguments against gay marriage. i could have in no way explained how i feel about it better than he has. i am totally against it, makes me sick and uneasy to see it or be around it.
Let them marry so they will SHUT THE HELL UP about it already.now this is funny!!

icarusdown

11-10-2004, 12:11 AM

^^ :werd: ^^

This is one of the big problems I have w/ Bush, if he's so against gey marriage he should have created a "civil union" 4 years ago so they could have equal rights in the eyes of the government and then the churches could perform the ceremony as they saw fit. But since nobody wanted to give them the rights they deserve now we are in this mess... and really it's just a silly distraction from the real issues facing us as a nation... make the people happy so we can move on to more important issues

:werd:
It's bullshit to give monetary (or otherwise) privledges to 1 man+ 1woman unities and deny those same advantages to two commited people of the same sex. The only reason that there are benefits for married couples is because economic unions are more stable than that of the individual. GET RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS! THIS IS NOT AN OPTION!
*And a side note:
Our constitution is heavily based on the philosophies of John Locke, Adam Smith, and Rousseau. Our constitution was designed with the understanding that the original creators (forefathers) did not necessarily know what would be best for the people of a later generation. That is why our constitution is so opened ended. (see 4th grade)
For our political leaders to try and shut the door on an issue that will persist throughout generations beyond their conception is the most ill-conceived, self-righteous, unconstitutional load of horse shit that I've seen in a long time. Equality my ass.

-ic

flatfourfan

11-10-2004, 12:32 AM

adam and eve, not adam and steve...........no to gay marriages........

Arachnid

11-10-2004, 12:52 AM

adam and eve, not adam and steve...........no to gay marriages........

ahahahha reminds me of jins rap.

although we do like lesbians i think most of us still feel it "weird" to say that it's ok for them to marry. most of us when we think of gay marriage we think of gay married guys not lesbos. maybe this whole thing is biased who knows. but the thought of anyone under "married" whether it be gay guys or gals just doesn't register a picture in our minds. it's not just our opinions, it's natures too!

infinatenexus

11-10-2004, 03:57 AM

where do you stand?

I say yes to civil unions :TU:

NO to gay marriage :TD:

save a civic

11-10-2004, 08:27 AM

It's bullshit to give monetary (or otherwise) privledges to 1 man+ 1woman unities and deny those same advantages to two commited people of the same sex. The only reason that there are benefits for married couples is because economic unions are more stable than that of the individual.

-maybe we should give better benefits to tri-couples too then. have you heard of this yet, a marriage of 3? you will. where do we draw the line? it doesnt infringe on anyone else's rights and they want it. and hey, i want to fuck the 12 year old across the street (not really) and she wants to be committed to me even though i'm 25... can we get better benefits? we want to get married... you gonna stand by and watch me? it's principle sir.

GET RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS! THIS IS NOT AN OPTION!

-our politics werefounded with a big emphasis on it. they can deny it if they want , they can kick, scream, wine, cry and throw a tantrum... but it was created with the Christian religion in mind. and guess what... it's gonna take a heck of alot to pull religion out. i hope it never does.

adam and eve, not adam and steve...........no to gay marriages........

-i couldnt have said it better myself

-and once again, respectfully... -nate

rotory20

11-10-2004, 08:42 AM

John and Mary, no john and fat larry..
No gay marriage...

just a question..? my wife has a flamer friend...
when in your life do you decide you want a dick in your mouth..?

makku

11-10-2004, 08:49 AM

-maybe we should give better benefits to tri-couples too then. have you heard of this yet, a marriage of 3? you will. where do we draw the line? it doesnt infringe on anyone else's rights and they want it. and hey, i want to fuck the 12 year old across the street (not really) and she wants to be committed to me even though i'm 25... can we get better benefits? we want to get married... you gonna stand by and watch me? it's principle sir.

Ok, I'll grant you there is a slim chance of your first example happening. But, invariably, the argument (aside from religion) is going to be some kind of oppression. I mean, why can't the Mormons marry more than 1 wife anymore. Well, the gov't is trying to make people equal. 2 for 1 is not equal. However, you're right, there's still a slim chance of something different being proposed.

NOW, your 2nd example is really very laughable. Minors fall under a different set of rules. The gov't assumes that they cannot make decisions for themselves and can't protect themselves. That's why there's child protective services and it's illegal for minors to have sex (even with each other). You will NEVER be allowed to bang a minor legally in this country unless we lower the "adult" age.

But first, we have to fix the alcohol laws in this country... 21? Ridiculous

rotory20

11-10-2004, 08:54 AM

You will NEVER be allowed to bang a minor legally in this country unless we lower the "adult" age.

But first, we have to fix the alcohol laws in this country... 21? Ridiculous
Good on ya^^^
Im old enough but if you can go to war for your country you should be able to f in drink a beer.!!!! All military under 21 can drink in any other coutry except here...
go figure...
At we know sqad is "old" enough now..lol

kommon_sense

11-10-2004, 09:02 AM

gay marriage is 2 distinctly different issues...

1. Marriage is a religious institution recognized by the state. Whether you agree with the idea of gay marriage is based on your moral and religious beliefs.

2. Should the government have the right to say who we can and can not marry. There is supposed to be a separation of church and state and no one should be enforcing their moral standards on us.

we should do what they have been doing in europe for years, if you want to get married go to the church... otherwise go to city hall and get a civil union...

What is funny to me is that practically every major religion says that we should not enforce our religious beliefs on one another and that exactly what people are trying to do... Also scares me that the gov't can say who we can and can not marry based on what they deem morally acceptable... Think about how far this could go... Even in this day and age, a lot of people don't approve of interracial relationships/marriages... Are we going to see legislation against this next?

Sonny7730

11-10-2004, 09:37 AM

makku

11-10-2004, 09:40 AM

what people seem to forget is that Morality is a personal issue. Everyone has their own morals and they can be different. I don't like it when the president says he's a moral person... wtf does that mean to me? Nothing, because everyone's morals are different.

What we need to watch out for is Ethics. Ethics is what laws should be based on. Gay marriage/civil unions really has no place in an ethics debate. However, adoption by gay couples and abortion are things that should be brought up in an ethics debate because they affect others.

makku

11-10-2004, 09:45 AM

to kind of go on the issue of marrying minors, it already happens. in the state of alabama, it's legal to marry a consenting 12 year old! I know this does not sound right, but it's true. canada: 14. Just to throw an idea out there, and I'll let you guys debate it. as for the seperation of church and state, the problem is that with that argument, the seperation of church and state was intended so that the state would not interfere with the churches beliefs and traditions. it was very carefully worded so that it was more of a one-sided thing, not both ways.
yeah, alabama is fucked up. It's not the act of sex with minors that bothers me (well kind of), but more of the fact that a minor has no real life experience to base a decision on. The 18 number is arbitrary... depending on the person it can range from 16-25... but there has to be something. 12 is way too young. The other person would be taking advantage of the minor IMO, no matter how good his/her intentions are.

i'll have to read the declaration of independence and the constitution again before I chime in on the church-state thing

Sonny7730

11-10-2004, 09:50 AM

yeah, alabama is fucked up. It's not the act of sex with minors that bothers me (well kind of), but more of the fact that a minor has no real life experience to base a decision on. The 18 number is arbitrary... depending on the person it can range from 16-25... but there has to be something. 12 is way too young. The other person would be taking advantage of the minor IMO, no matter how good his/her intentions are.

I totally agree. it's absured to believe that someone of that age could possibly have the experience or intelligence to make such a life choice. and also, girls are in the middle of puberty at that age. they are looking at older boys for the first time, and huge "crushes" soon follow. so it would be much easier for a 40 year old (yes i know extreme, but i'm sure it has happened) to make a 12 year old "fall in love with him" and to marry him. alabama claims there is a passage in the bible that says that 12 is the right age, and in my personal experience, i have NEVER seen this.

save a civic

11-10-2004, 09:56 AM

Even in this day and age, a lot of people don't approve of interracial relationships/marriages... Are we going to see legislation against this next?

-again, marriage even by law was based on Christian religion. ^ that is not a Christian practice.

-hey makku: NOW, your 2nd example is really very laughable.

to kind of go on the issue of marrying minors, it already happens. in the state of alabama, it's legal to marry a consenting 12 year old! I know this does not sound right, but it's true. canada: 14. Just to throw an idea out there, and I'll let you guys debate it. as for the seperation of church and state, the problem is that with that argument, the seperation of church and state was intended so that the state would not interfere with the churches beliefs and traditions. it was very carefully worded so that it was more of a one-sided thing, not both ways.

-makku, i couldnt agree more with the statement you made about the drinking age, but when i see this:

Im old enough but if you can go to war for your country you should be able to f in drink a beer.!!!! All military under 21 can drink in any other coutry except here...
go figure...

-i know he is right. btw rotary, if you are in the military, thanks.

What is funny to me is that practically every major religion says that we should not enforce our religious beliefs on one another and that exactly what people are trying to do... Also scares me that the gov't can say who we can and can not marry based on what they deem morally acceptable

-marriage is not a moral practice, it was and is a religious practice.

-to the homosexuals who want to be "married": you can call yourselves whatever you damn will want. but dont expect the rest of this country to sign off on it and slap the state seal on your ass for it motherfuckers it's not a dress up game. it's our religious practice. if you want some assurance that you and your partner are legit, take it up with your fucken partner. and if it is benefits you seek, push for a "joined" bill, not a marriage. it's just not right. i dont go around with a fucken rainbow sticker on my car do i? no... because i know it means something to you and i respect that. respect marriage. i dont hate you, bash you, disrespect or dislike you. in Gods eyes you are my brothers but even brothers need to be taught respect.

-it needed to be said.

makku

11-10-2004, 11:09 AM

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

Something to think about.. (and the author is a Baptist, too)

btw, i hope you realize that i'm against such a high drinking age... wasn't sure what you meant there. BTW, I'm now against gays getting married... but I'm also against the government giving out marriage licenses... the government should only give out civil union licenses. Whoever mentioned that :TU:

save a civic

11-10-2004, 12:07 PM

BTW, I'm now against gays getting married... but I'm also against the government giving out marriage licenses... the government should only give out civil union licenses.

-there you go makku, now your're talking. "marriage liscences" or "holy matrimony" should (i agree) be done by the church. i couldnt have said it better myself. ;-)

Steve-O

11-10-2004, 01:50 PM

I could honestly care less and I think the world has more important things to worry about than trying to stop two same sex people from getting married. Things like CHILD PORN, RAPE, MURDER, TERRORISM and so on.

I work with a lesbian couple at my factory and one of the girls is a good friend of mine. Just by looking you can only tell that one of them is gay (the girl who married my friend) because they dont act any different than normal couples. I've only seen them kiss once and it was at her birthday party which was thrown by her wife.

Of course the bible-thumpers will say NAY to it and thats fine. And before that commentr draws a religious debate, I'm not hating on religion either...just had many years of Catholicism shoved down my esophagus so I'm a bit harsh towards all things religiously cultish.

:???: Is it just me or do people seem to be getting more and more antsy over gay marriages and the whole Osama Bin Ladden thing has fallen out of the limelight? Who am I more afraid of??????

Like for real here folks...those who are vigilantly anti-gay should get back to working on changing the aspects of our society that actual have a DETRIMENTAL EFFECT on it and our CHILDREN. And if the issue of it's effect on children becomes a concern....now stay with me on this one while I impart a brilliant piece of wisdom here.....TRY TALKING TO THEM ABOUT IT. I honestly cannot forsee into the future a child who would grow up being a menace or burden to society from experiencing or seeing gay marriage.

I hardly see how this issue is going to send out civilization into this downward spiral of debacle and turmoil.

Just my $0.02 tho so don't hate.

bspeed

11-10-2004, 02:59 PM

Maybe the real issue here is that we have such loose definitions of the words we use and there is way too much room for interpretation with what we say.

It seems to me that the consensus here is that "Marriage" is a ceremony and lifestyle that is instituted in the church pursued in accordance with said body's ethics and virtues, this is correct yes? I feel this much about the word. However in our society it is used too loosely and it can be construed to mean a lot of things i.e. if I tell someone to fuck themselves there is no misconception about what I mean right?

Save a civic- You mentioned a Joined bill and this a great name, a civil union, a recognized commitment, what ever legislators wish to call it; it seems to me that you recognize that if two adults wish to be legally bound together then that is their own right to be miserable and should be allowed.

The Catholic/Christian church is really the last group of people I would ever really want to take cues on how to live from, here is a short list of things done in the name of the church (Not all were condoned by the church): The Spanish Inquisition (mmm torture), The creation of the Protestant sect simply for divorce (thanks King Henry), The Crusades to save the Holy Land (still fightin' over there), Castration of choir boys to keep them angelic voices (classy), speaking of child molesters how about the priest-alterboy action (including the Vatican sponsered cover-ups), The hillbillies in the Klan think they are "knights of Christ" (not exactly a braintrust group), the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans/Central Americans/Carribean Islanders by gold seeking "missionaries" (thanks Cortez,Columbus and friends)..... This list could go on for quite some time.
Is there a need to to more definitively separate church and state? Yes.

save a civic, I have yet to hear about the 3way marriage concept, but I don't doubt its arrival. I think it is just as silly as the next rational person.

As far as the drinking age in regards to military boys and gals(while I don't agree with the drinking age), I joined the Navy when I was 17 not only could I not drink, I couldn't smoke or vote either; If I had commited a felony that year I also would have been tried as a minor. Joining the military is an option folks that is the cut and dry of it. No one crys about the minors in the peace corps not drinking or our state firefighters, when these people put themselves in nearly as much danger as our military. I chanted the 'old enought to kill but not drink' plenty when I was younger too, so I am no saint.

The problem I see is that we all want the rights but none of the responsibilities of life. Look at TV 'Survivor' and 'The Swan' two excellent examples of the ideal that if I either lie and screw others over or just let my self go and cry about it that I can make it in life anyway. What happened to the real ideals that made our country great; Work hard and you can acheive what you want, Honor and courage will make you a respected person, Reliability and manners and others will want your company.

We are a microwave, internet, cell phone society; good things will come to those who work and are patient enough for these things to come.

"... give me convenience or give me death...", Jello Biafra

save a civic

11-10-2004, 03:20 PM

well there he is.... welcome do the war steve-o. :werd:

I could honestly care less and I think the world has more important things to worry about than trying to stop two same sex people from getting married. Things like CHILD PORN, RAPE, MURDER, TERRORISM and so on.

you are right, but i highly reccommend we dont let smaller things fly by us like farts in the wind. they seem to take us when and where we least expect it. bit point well taken sir.

I honestly cannot forsee into the future a child who would grow up being a menace or burden to society from experiencing or seeing gay marriage.

I hardly see how this issue is going to send out civilization into this downward spiral of debacle and turmoil.

i agree 100% steve-o, but the biggest issue at hand is that they want state recognition for it. remember this...

to the homosexuals who want to be "married:" if you want some assurance that you and your partner are legit, take it up with your fucken partner. and if it is benefits you seek, push for a "joined" bill, not a marriage. it's just not right. i dont go around with a fucken rainbow sticker on my car do i? no... because i know it means something to you and i respect that. respect marriage.

also, i do not believe the gov has any right to do ANY marriages, it should be up to the chruch. i think makku said it best...

BTW, I'm now against gays getting married... but I'm also against the government giving out marriage licenses... the government should only give out civil union licenses.

just had many years of Catholicism shoved down my esophagus so I'm a bit harsh towards all things religiously cultish.

been there... realized that the bible teached differently than my catholic church and when i asked why we were confessing/praying to mary anyway... they became upset w/me (not downtalking anyone! this is MY PERSONAL experience with MY previous catholic church! if you're even thinking about a reply for this; grow up.). so am now "Christian" if you must put me in a category i think. i just believe the bible, and i dont want to push my beliefs on anyone. just expressing my opinion as we all want to.

i dont want to kill gays or watch them suffer. im not being mean cuz some think they are flamers. my best friend of 4 years was gay (yes, seriously. i havent seen him in a few years because he moved away) so i know they arent all flamey. he's a cool guy and believes that gay marriages should not be allowed either. he believes as makku said...

Steve-O

11-10-2004, 04:39 PM

...However in our society it is used too loosely and it can be construed to mean a lot of things i.e. if I tell someone to fuck themselves there is no misconception about what I mean right?:werd: :TU:

The Catholic/Christian church is really the last group of people I would ever really want to take cues on how to live from, here is a short list of things done in the name of the church (Not all were condoned by the church): The Spanish Inquisition (mmm torture), The creation of the Protestant sect simply for divorce (thanks King Henry), The Crusades to save the Holy Land (still fightin' over there), Castration of choir boys to keep them angelic voices (classy), speaking of child molesters how about the priest-alterboy action (including the Vatican sponsered cover-ups), The hillbillies in the Klan think they are "knights of Christ" (not exactly a braintrust group), the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans/Central Americans/Carribean Islanders by gold seeking "missionaries" (thanks Cortez,Columbus and friends)..... This list could go on for quite some time.
Is there a need to to more definitively separate church and state? Yes.AMEN with a capital AMEN (no pun intended)

The problem I see is that we all want the rights but none of the responsibilities of life. Look at TV 'Survivor' and 'The Swan' two excellent examples of the ideal that if I either lie and screw others over or just let my self go and cry about it that I can make it in life anyway.Well said bspeed. I seriously f*#kin hate that pity shit. Take accountability for your actions and know that when you cause yourself grief, it is no one's fault but your own. Sure we will cry about shit sometimes and crying is fine because it shows we are human and we have feelings, emotions and, in most cases, remosre. However when the tears are gone and the pain has subsided, we have to begin the journey to correct our actions and learn from the err.

What happened to the real ideals that made our country great; Work hard and you can acheive what you want, Honor and courage will make you a respected person, Reliability and manners and others will want your company.Those are the ideals I live by but have found that no longer work or exist in society as a whole because people like me tend to be pushed by the wayside or trampled on by those who have learned to manipulate and weasel their way through life. I still like to because in doing the right thing, being as honest as possible and treating people like we want to be treated (shamless Golden Rule analogy)

We are a microwave, internet, cell phone society; good things will come to those who work and are patient enough for these things to come.

"... give me convenience or give me death...", Jello BiafraPatience helps, but don't be afraid to pursue what makes you happy or go for something you like.

Good ol Jello/DK quote (I had that album) :TU:

Steve-O

11-10-2004, 04:47 PM

P.S. We could start an inner-thread debate alone on the churches involvement in social issues such as this and many others.

Let me begin the torches and pitchfork witch hunt for Steve-O by saying I think the church should have no say or influence in any issues which are not directly related to or impact them. Unless it involves topics dealing with the physical church building, the Vatican state, clergy body or anything in between, please leave the rest of society alone.

No Satan is not dictating this to me, I'm just fed up with being told what to do, how to live my life and how I will subsequently be punished for everything. After years of having religion sandwiches buttered with hypocrisy shoved down my throat, I feel the church is nothing more than a glorified and socially accepted cult, worshipping a book which in essence could be the world's oldest and first recorded example of the telephone game. I'm smart, repsected, decent and I believe in treatng people with genuine concern and decency. Thank you :jesus: but I think I can take things from here fine enough on my own.

This is an opinion BTW and was not intended to upset any of my religious D-bretheren althought I fear I already have.

:neutral: I smell the smoke from everyone's keyboards already.

save a civic

11-10-2004, 04:56 PM

Unless it has to do with a church, the Vatican or the clergy body, please leave the rest of society alone.

it does... not the state....
I'm not Satan here, just fed up with being told what to do and how to live my life by a glorified cult worshipping the world's oldest form of the telephone game. I'm smart, repsected and decent...I think I can run my life fine enough on my own thanks.

YOU MOTHER!@%#@... just kidding steve-o. completely understood...

Sonny7730

11-10-2004, 05:10 PM

hey steve-o, everyone is completely entitled to their opinions. the problem with some people (and christians I get the feeling are more guilty of this than anybody else) is that they get pissed off and everything when someone states their thoughts or opinions. now, as long as it's stated in a respectful manner, and without harmful intent, no one has any reason to get pissed. and dude, I certainly understand what you're talking about and where you come from. religion just isn't for some people. not saying that in a degrading way, but just a statement that some people follow by faith, and some follow by what they see and know. it's all dependent on personal choices! it's all good man.

infinatenexus

11-10-2004, 07:12 PM

Steve-O[/b]] Of course the bible-thumpers will say NAY to it and thats fine. And before that commentr draws a religious debate, I'm not hating on religion either...just had many years of Catholicism shoved down my esophagus so I'm a bit harsh towards all things religiously cultish.
Catholics always seem to be at the root of peoples problems with religion..... and people wonder why I am Jewish...lol

makku

11-10-2004, 08:46 PM

Catholics always seem to be at the root of peoples problems with religion..... and people wonder why I am Jewish...lol
I love Jewish people :) they never try to tell you that their religion is the right one. They don't try to convert you. They don't talk about Jesus 24/7 ;)

Plus, if you're not jewish (one of the chosen people), guess what? You can still go to heaven... i think it's a different heaven or something like that. My roommate explained it to me once. Basically, Jewish people because they're jewish are held to a much higher standard, while the rest of us just have to be good. Besides they have no hell... sweet.

Now how's that for a religion that doesn't infringe on anyone's lives? BTW, hell no, I don't want to be jewish. If my family were jewish, I wouldn't exist. My grandfather's family already had to move from the North of France to the South of France during WWII because they got nervous about having jewish ancestry... fucking Nazis.

infinatenexus

11-11-2004, 04:07 AM

Makku, you hit the nail on the head..numerous times..:TU:

kommon_sense

11-11-2004, 07:42 AM

I love Jewish people :) they never try to tell you that their religion is the right one. They don't try to convert you. They don't talk about Jesus 24/7 ;)

Plus, if you're not jewish (one of the chosen people), guess what? You can still go to heaven... i think it's a different heaven or something like that. My roommate explained it to me once. Basically, Jewish people because they're jewish are held to a much higher standard, while the rest of us just have to be good. Besides they have no hell... sweet.
According to the Bible Christians are *supposed* to be the same way... Except there is a hell in Christianity.

save a civic

11-11-2004, 09:15 AM

i see where you are coming from guys. i respect ALL of your opinions, believe it or not. but the bible says the only way to heaven is by faith, not grace (not what you do, but what you believe) that doesnt mean you can sin endlessly in the same way and say i believe im still saved. with belief comes a certain lifestyle. and you must also accept Christ as stated numerous times in the bible... i do not believe in the bible because it suits me or is convenient for me or because it doesnt infringe on anyone else. i believe it because i find it to be valid. we all have our own beliefs and i guarantee they come from some reason in some way. i doubt anyone could call themselves a buddhist or catholic or anything, just because of no reason. i may have been brought up Christian, but i only became "Christian" (again, if you must group me with a religion. i just believe the bible) about a year ago.

once again and again, respectfully... -nate

infinatenexus

11-11-2004, 02:38 PM

According to the Bible Christians are *supposed* to be the same way... Except there is a hell in Christianity.
Hell is just the Churches way to scare people into attending every Sunday, and donating 10%.

bspeed

11-11-2004, 02:55 PM

...just had many years of Catholicism shoved down my esophagus <<< umm are you sure it was JUST Catholicism the priest was shoving down your throat? lmfao. Steve-o I am sorry but I had to say it. :grin:

Steve-O

11-11-2004, 03:58 PM

<<< umm are you sure it was JUST Catholicism the priest was shoving down your throat? lmfao. Steve-o I am sorry but I had to say it. :grin:As funny as that is, I think it's completely appalling when we can actually MAKE jokes like that one because that shit happens in real life.

Ever notice how the threads in this section could all be tied into each other? Attn mods: Feel free to move my post to the STATE OF THE WORLD THREAD ;)

Hell is just the Churches way to scare people into attending every Sunday, and donating 10%.
:werd:
Thats why the Catholic church is probably the richest non-industrial organization in the world. I hardly think they need gold altars and such posh surroundings like can be found in the Vatican (so huge it's considered a state). Someone explain to me why is it that the clergy at the top of the totem pole live such a lavish existence while the neighborhood priest must observe a vow of poverty and wear the same black suit every day?

infinatenexus

11-11-2004, 04:49 PM

Thats why the Catholic church is probably the richest non-industrial organization in the world. I hardly think they need gold altars and such posh surroundings like can be found in the Vatican (so huge it's considered a state). Someone explain to me why is it that the clergy at the top of the totem pole live such a lavish existence while the neighborhood priest must observe a vow of poverty and wear the same black suit every day?
Very true, people often forget, a Church is first and foremost a business.

4dr_wtf

11-11-2004, 06:23 PM

i really dont care whos married to who makes no difference to me. unless a gay guy hits on me.

seano

11-11-2004, 09:46 PM

Great discussion guys... very cool heads in here.

I am for whatever, as long as it's equal. Call it whatever you want. Marriage, union, whatever. They are people just like me and you and deserve access to the same exact things as me and you.

peaces.

save a civic

11-12-2004, 08:35 AM

Very true, people often forget, a Church is first and foremost a business.

you know infin.... its's sad but true. christian, catholic, buddhist... personally i attend a teenie tiny church with no more than 50 people. mostly my family runs it and i am in charge of food donations for the homeless. with only 50 people, theres no money to get for it, i do it because i love the people. yes even the broken, homeless and physically handicapped! but make no mistake about it, i get paid... ex: a church member heard about my wifes car fire a week ago and came by to drop off a 95 pontiac for her to have. i've never even met her before. i get things like that all the time. not all churches are bad, but i couldnt agree more. it's unfortunate, i see it everyday and it doesnt appear that it will end anytime soon.