black-top head on to a brown-top block?

[Baxter]

I bet it's been asked a thousand times, but search didn't help... :(

Can you fit a black-top head on to a brown-top block with little or no modification?

Yes I know the electrics are different. And yes I believe the compression will drop by using a head intended for domed pistons on a block with flat pistons - but that's cool since it's for a turbo instal in a g1 CRX...

I readlly need to know if this is possible? I'd especially like to hear from people who have actually done it...

Thanks greatly for any help you can provided.

[87zc1crx]

Hi.
Well, i made a swap (few pics in vbgarage) of a zc-1 engine with a d16a9.
As you can see, both heads are the same, so you can use the bt head on brown block or the oposite.
Yes the compression changes and in our case (brown top head and bt block) the car has more torque and top speed.
As for the electronics, i swaped to obd0 but i can´t help you as i lost track of changes somewhere between and now i can´t remember everything...
If you need more info, just ask.
I have a post more or less detailed of my swap.

[katman]

if you're putting a 8-bolt valve cover blacktop ZC head on a browntop, it'll bolt directly on, no problem. The key is to reusing your cam sprockets, don't use the blacktop smaller cam sprockets (if the head comes with them). This way you'll keep your timing belt & pulley's happy.

on a side note, I was going to do this exact setup in my old 87 Civic Si w/browntop ZC engine back in '97. I had a 89 D16A1 block + tranny & 89 JDM ZC head + intake manifold...wish I got around to completing it... =(

[Mr. Focus]

so, could you put a brown top onto a d16a8 block. and what kind of gains would we be talking???

[katman]

so, could you put a brown top onto a d16a8 block. and what kind of gains would we be talking???
I'm not too familiar with the UK ZC/D16A8 engine, but from what I understand, they're exactly like a JDM browntop (4bolt v.cover). So technically, yes you can swap heads around if you'd like.

Do you have a D16A8? Can you snap some pictures of your engine for me? I'm putting an article together on my tech site (www.ff-squad.com/technet (http://www.ff-squad.com/technet)) regarding ZC engines & the history of them, and how to install a ZC into 84-87 civic/crx's...


thanks =)

[Mr. Focus]

yeah dude. i'll get some to ya as soon as i can

[87zc1crx]

Well, when we made the swap i didn´t change anything on the cams (wtf is sprocket??).
Power gains? Well, the fucker eats high rpm and it´s much better than a complete zc (without mods).
I´ll take many pictures today and i´ll get back to you later.

[mynameistin]

you could put the browntop head on the a8 block but its pointless...the D16a1 motor is basiclly the same as the JDM ZC (Blacktop) the performance diff is i belive in the head...the porting the cams and so forth. the USDM version (a1) is just an underpowered JDM ZC to fit emissions of the US.

[strudel]

Katman, Interesting site but can't open the articles. Are you waiting til complete or should I be able to read what is there now. JS

Article 1 - Technical History of the JDM ZC & U.S. D16A1 Engine(s)
Article 2 - How-to Install a ZC/D16A1 into an 84-87 Civ/CRX

[87zc1crx]

Well, after testing with both 87 crx i have in hand, one with a a8 block and zc-1 rest and another with a complete a8, i have to notice that i have much better response in low revs (until 4k) and the zc-1/a8 combo is much better at high rpm (>5k).
I think that it´s because of the diferent compression ration that the zc-1/a8 has.
As the zc-1 pistons are flat and the rods thicker, when we put the a8 block (domed pistons+lighter rods) we got more compression.
Also i have carefuly compared the cams in both heads (a8 and zc-1) and besides the phisical diference in the mounting, they´re the same.
What do you think?

[S Q A D]

you ZC guys are rockin over here

keep it up guys :TU: :TU:

[87zc1crx]

Now i have a new project: as for today i´ll be building a zc-1 block with a a8 head, zc-1 gearbox/tranny, obd0 electronics and after the breakin, a turbo.
I´m going to take many pics of it, but i have yet to find a place to put them online.
I had several detailed pics in another post, but they´re lost ??

[87zc1crx]

One thing i wanted to add is that on the engine made with the combo zc-1 + d16a9 block we placed the d16a9 cams on the head.
So i guess that the compression ratio and the cams made this engine so good as it is now.
The fucker is really fast.
I´m saving for going into a power test with both cars and post the dyno sheets.
Let´s see if i can do it in the next month!

[katman]

Katman, Interesting site but can't open the articles. Are you waiting til complete or should I be able to read what is there now. JS

Article 1 - Technical History of the JDM ZC & U.S. D16A1 Engine(s)
Article 2 - How-to Install a ZC/D16A1 into an 84-87 Civ/CRX

Those links are now active.
I wasn't quite finished with both articles just yet tho, but they're about 90% complete... lemme know what you guys think =)

I got maad props on the redpepperracing forum =)


in regards to using a blacktop head (4bolt valve cover) on a browntop block, you can, as mentioned already. It swaps over & bolts in exactly like the browntop head. You just need to reuse the distributor side cam journal from a browntop head on the blacktop head, so you can reuse your vaccum advance distributor. Doing this will allow you to mount the top leg of the vaccum adv. distributor on the blacktohead...and this will be the only leg out of the three that you will be able to use tho, since the blacktop head has a different bolt pattern for an 88-89 distributor.

[87zc1crx]

Hey katman!

Have you ever drivern this combo?

[katman]

Hey katman!

Have you ever drivern this combo?
Nope.
Never got the chance to because I sold all my stuff and bought an EG civic cuz I wanted a VTEC engine. Wish i did tho!!

btw, can you give me some history on the Rover 416GTI vehicle? like is that the only Rover car that came with the D16A8/9 and that funky valve cover?

[87zc1crx]

Nope, honda equiped rover with engines from 86 to 92.
There are a lot of cars with the d16a8/9 from rover like the 216/416/200(old)/land rover and even 6cyl engines.
You can be shure that almost every honda engine was in a rover between this period of time. The 1.3, 1.4, 1.6, 2.0 and even some 2.2

What i found is that i can´t use their ecu, even it´s a regular pp5.... always solid cell or a very strange behaviour...

Well, i could really use a pm7 or pm6 for my car...

The valve cover is quite common like that on rover, even the sohc have a identical one.

[katman]

Nope, honda equiped rover with engines from 86 to 92.
There are a lot of cars with the d16a8/9 from rover like the 216/416/200(old)/land rover and even 6cyl engines.
You can be shure that almost every honda engine was in a rover between this period of time. The 1.3, 1.4, 1.6, 2.0 and even some 2.2

What i found is that i can´t use their ecu, even it´s a regular pp5.... always solid cell or a very strange behaviour...

Well, i could really use a pm7 or pm6 for my car...

The valve cover is quite common like that on rover, even the sohc have a identical one.


thanks for the tidbit of Rover info!
btw, this might sounds dumb of me, but is Rover the same company that makes the Land Rover vehicle? :wink:

[87zc1crx]

Yes it´s the same, and most funny is that on those jeeps you get the dohc zc.
Also, the new rover 200 vi or brm has a b18c? block mounted backwards but with a diferent head and a vtec like system called vvti.

[katman]

Yes it´s the same, and most funny is that on those jeeps you get the dohc zc.
Also, the new rover 200 vi or brm has a b18c? block mounted backwards but with a diferent head and a vtec like system called vvti.

hah weird...jeeps with ZC engines...

oh, it sounds like the Rover 200 vi comes with new K-series DOHC iVTEC engine. Interesting. Have any pics of this car handy ?